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EU countries team up for semiconductor push

reuters.com

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Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#261

Post by Normille »

arnaudsm wrote: post #193
ralfn wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most competitive chips in the world are produced by machines made in the Netherlands at ASMI/ASML The US companies do what they do best: innovate business models and find ways to vendor lock in and own the market. But who's been doing all the research keeping moore's law alive? Lithography? For a country as small as the Netherlands, you can wonder if we could afford from a geopolitical point of view to be producing a…

> It will end up in the pockets of friends and families of politicians that will be in "the management". 100% agree. Considering the incredible education system and engineers we have, the 2 only things restraining Europe from reaching Silicon Valley level are corrupt politicians and risk-adverse VCs.

  >and risk-adverse VCs.
I think this is the big one.

I don't know exactly how realistic this is. But from this side of the pond [Europe], it seems like, in the US there are VCs willing to throw millions [billions sometimes] at companies which are little more than a couple of guys with a silly idea, which would get you laughed out of your bank manager's office over here, if you went in asking to borrow a few hundred euros/pounds.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#262

Post by jwmullally »

Gravityloss wrote: post #48

So, what would a new bleeding edge modern architecture and instruction set look like if one could start from scratch? I assume general computing so cell phones and servers are the target.

Like Itanium!

We already have x86-64 (guarded licenses), ARM (less guarded but still uncertain) and SPARC, Power, RISC-V (open source).

Should a new ISA be the focus of major economic plans? Maybe if one of the objectives is protectionist ISA licensing, but that seems like an insular mistake.

An ISA ecosystem is a lingua-franca, so choosing a well established one is the most sensible basis for growing different semi/IT industry flows around.

In terms of discovering new technical benefits, new ISA's should be explored in academic circles and startups where they won't waste everyones time and money on boondoggles.

This might apply less to microcontrollers.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#263

Post by bazooka_penguin »

welterde wrote: post #141
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much. I mean in theory someone could build a new fab in Europe, using European-built machines (from ASML). In practice, it'll involve government involvement so it HAS to become a multi-national endeavour where every country wants to leave their mark on it, and of course said countries' work culture / ethic. Even if it is a standalone company, it'll be vying for that dank european subsidy.

Might give GlobalFoundries another crack at their 7nm technology. Currently they are stuck at 14nm at their US fab and 12nm at their German fab (they rolled that out last year iirc).

Gf had access to 7nm through the ip transfer from IBM. They chose not to build new facilities because they didn't see themselves competing at leading edge in the long term. They weren't very good at innovation. Their 14nm was licensed from samsung and their unused 7nm was transferred from IBM who was leaving the industry.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#265

Post by selectodude »

rmrfstar wrote: post #167
yvdriess wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It does make it baffling why Intel is unable to produce 5nn chips with the same ASML machines TSC is using. It must be management failing Boeing style. ASML machines do not produce chips, they're just ones doing the etching. There is a ton around what you do with it, and how all the rest of the chip is produced. They don't come with pre-programmed transistor gate templates. Each fab company has its own libraries of…

> the consensus seems to be that Intel tried to pile up too many new improvements, which backfired. TSMC took a more incremental and safe approach Can you point to some industry literature that explains this? If this is true, it is a lot more surprising that Intel is talking about going fabless. You build a lot of expertise by rolling the dice on new techniques that don't pan out on the first iteration. People wouldn…

>People wouldn't be so pessimistic about Boeing if they had just been overly aggressive in a new airframe design, rather than failing to safely mount new engines on an old design.

Unfortunately Boeing doesn't have a huge list of customers that are willing to spend what it costs to switch to a new airframe. They sell to airlines what airlines want to buy. Airlines wanted a 737 with higher bypass engines and that's exactly what they got.

Boeing deserves what they get for pushing a faulty design out the door but they didn't do it as some nefarious cost cutting measure. They did it because American and Southwest said they wanted nothing to do with a "797" and threatened to switch to Airbus.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#266

Post by foepys »

WhoCaresLies wrote: post #14
LunaSea wrote: post #10

What will actually happen: some countries will spend a trivial amount of money in a PR stunt with not coordination between the countries and result in no advance for the EU countries participating. Source: All other industries in Europe.

Energy, Steel, Semi(ARM), Pharma, Luxury, Distribution, Telecom Giants in Europe, there are a lot more Only Americans think the opposite, i wonder why.. And speaking of market, Europe is a big player, https://www.vgchartz.com/ console sales speak for itself Stop being brainwashed

I've always found it funny that Germany is internationally known for its engineering when Chemistry is equally or even more important. Bayer, Lanxess, BASF, Covestro, Evonik Industries are some of the largest in the world. Their factories in Germany are rivaling small cities in their size.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#267

Post by guai888 »

chrisjc wrote: post #192
christophilus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a guess, but there's been some press about China luring TSMC's talent by offering outsized salaries. Also, there's the increasingly aggressive military presence of China (flying bombers and jets over Taiwanese airspace with ever greater audacity) which suggests it's only a matter of time before China officially takes Taiwan. I honestly don't see the world doing anything to stop that.

So i wonder if "being overtaken" by China is a better way to phrase it then.

US is doing everything they can to kill semiconductor in China. US and Japan have most of the key tools, components necessary to design and fabricate semiconductor. After US announce the sanction on SMIC, the writing is on the wall for China's semiconductor industry. Just this week we saw huge rise in Taiwanese semiconductor companies's stocks price and huge drop in China's semiconductor companies's.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#269

Post by [deleted] »

arnaudsm wrote: post #193
ralfn wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most competitive chips in the world are produced by machines made in the Netherlands at ASMI/ASML The US companies do what they do best: innovate business models and find ways to vendor lock in and own the market. But who's been doing all the research keeping moore's law alive? Lithography? For a country as small as the Netherlands, you can wonder if we could afford from a geopolitical point of view to be producing a…

> It will end up in the pockets of friends and families of politicians that will be in "the management". 100% agree. Considering the incredible education system and engineers we have, the 2 only things restraining Europe from reaching Silicon Valley level are corrupt politicians and risk-adverse VCs.

[deleted]

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#270

Post by andy_ppp »

rossdavidh wrote: post #254

So, as someone who used to be an engineer in semiconductor manufacturing facilities, this reminds me a lot of Sematech. That was a joint venture between American companies in the 90's, when there was a concern that we were falling behind Japan. I'm sure there will be people who try to claim otherwise, but my view from inside AMD (at that time still doing its own manufacturing) was that nothing much ever came out of S…

I agree, their problem wasn't lack of resources it was they stopped believing in Moore's law. They started to believe that 5 and 3nm advancements were not coming and didn't make the hundreds/thousands of new inventions needed to get them there. At least that's what I get reading between the lines here... Jim Keller talks about this in this in the Lex Fridman podcast: https://youtu.be/Nb2tebYAaOA?t=1892
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