EU countries team up for semiconductor push • Hacker News Board

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#111

Post by ralfn » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:47 PM UTC

arnaudsm wrote: post #8

This is a great decision! I never understood why Europe under-invested in semi considering the talents they have and the strategic nature of it. Intel is dying a slow death, ARM is leaving UK's control, and TSMC is slowly taken over by China. The tables are turning.

Most competitive chips in the world are produced by machines made in the Netherlands at ASMI/ASML

The US companies do what they do best: innovate business models and find ways to vendor lock in and own the market.

But who's been doing all the research keeping moore's law alive? Lithography?

For a country as small as the Netherlands, you can wonder if we could afford from a geopolitical point of view to be producing all the world's chips (answer: no, it would force other place to invest highly in competition out of strategic interest).

Hence the strategy of being long term profitable and to just sell the machines to everyone at the same price.

It does make it baffling why Intel is unable to produce 5nn chips with the same ASML machines TSC is using. It must be management failing Boeing style.

As for the rest of Europe. Im sure they can politically do this. But where will the money end up?

It will end up in the pockets of friends and families of politicians that will be in "the management".

So don't expect anything from this. The future most sold chip will still be Apple Silicon or Samsung Exynos in TSC's foundry or Samsung foundry on a machine by ASML using IP from ARM and NVidia

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#112

Post by wreath » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

tomcooks wrote: post #32

Zdup wrote: post #12

How will they be keeping talent? I heard workers in IT are paid low compared to other jobs and especially compared to similar jobs in North America, what stops them. from just going to US/Canada?

Free healthcare, somehow reasonable housing prices outside of huge city centers, proximity to elderly parents, generally higher quality of life, to name few reasons.

Health care is not free. You a large part of your income for it (and other things too). Not free, and not an excellent one either.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#113

Post by kube-system » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

WhoCaresLies wrote: post #21

Zdup wrote: post #12

How will they be keeping talent? I heard workers in IT are paid low compared to other jobs and especially compared to similar jobs in North America, what stops them. from just going to US/Canada?

you don't want workers in IT, look at the USA, other than silicon valey (1 state), they all hire from India, and the salary from other states are comparable to what you find elsewhere in the world, including China you want researchers, and EU has ton of them ;)

Tech salaries in the lowest wage areas in the US are comparable to western Europe. Wages in any major US metropolitan area are higher on average.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#114

Post by cleansy » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:51 PM UTC

newbie578 wrote: post #101

Unfortunately, does anyone even takes the EU serious nowadays in tech? The more I follow the European tech scene, the more disappointed I become. EU's biggest tech company aside of ARM is Spotify... Almost every second startup I read about in https://www.eu-startups.com/ is a fintech/budgeting app which is trying to "disrupt" banking. Revolut is the biggest player, yet they are literally throwing money to achieve a m…

> Almost every second startup I read about in https://www.eu-startups.com/ is a fintech/budgeting app

These kind of startup focused news sites are quite biased towards B2C/C2C software/*tech places, as most of their businesses need the public attention to succeed. Most B2B startups don't care much about outreach to these outlets, as most of their clients don't read it.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#115

Post by Jacqued » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:51 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #82

Jacqued wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most places the cost of living is pretty low compared to the US, so even the admittedly lower engineer salaries in Europe can give you a very comfortable lifestyle. Eg. in France if you make 60-80k and live anywhere other than Paris you're doing great. For the top end of talent there's always freelancing, with a different, higher band of earning levels.

>Eg. in France if you make 60-80k and live anywhere other than Paris you're doing great. Except that how many devs outside of Paris make 60-80k? Most French engineers I met in Germany left France because of low wages outside of Paris which is so expensive that most of your wage gains evaporate anyway unless you have a baller job in finance or management consulting.

In my anecdotal experience 60k is typical for developers with 5 years of experience in larger cities, but often you do need to get into management to reach 80k.

I think it’s also getting better as all employers need to compete on salaries with remote offers from companies in Paris.

I’ll admit it though, if it was not for the ludicrous immigration laws I’d have probably moved to the Bay Area a long time ago.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#116

Post by fsflover » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:51 PM UTC

Gravityloss wrote: post #48

So, what would a new bleeding edge modern architecture and instruction set look like if one could start from scratch? I assume general computing so cell phones and servers are the target.

Here is how it could look: https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#117

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:53 PM UTC

Jacqued wrote: post #115

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Eg. in France if you make 60-80k and live anywhere other than Paris you're doing great. Except that how many devs outside of Paris make 60-80k? Most French engineers I met in Germany left France because of low wages outside of Paris which is so expensive that most of your wage gains evaporate anyway unless you have a baller job in finance or management consulting.

In my anecdotal experience 60k is typical for developers with 5 years of experience in larger cities, but often you do need to get into management to reach 80k. I think it’s also getting better as all employers need to compete on salaries with remote offers from companies in Paris. I’ll admit it though, if it was not for the ludicrous immigration laws I’d have probably moved to the Bay Area a long time ago.

>I’ll admit it though, if it was not for the ludicrous immigration laws I’d have probably moved to the Bay Area a long time ago.

That's kind of a catch-22 right there.

If it weren't for those "ludicrous immigration laws", tech salaries in the Bay Area would get watered down significantly while becoming even more expensive to live in, making the whole place less attractive to emigrate to over time, eventually reaching a state of equilibrium with wages probably close to EU level.

Think of it like a fancy nightclub. The more exclusive it is, the more people are willing to queue outside for hours for a chance to get in.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#118

Post by nickpp » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:54 PM UTC

tomcooks wrote: post #32

Zdup wrote: post #12

How will they be keeping talent? I heard workers in IT are paid low compared to other jobs and especially compared to similar jobs in North America, what stops them. from just going to US/Canada?

Free healthcare, somehow reasonable housing prices outside of huge city centers, proximity to elderly parents, generally higher quality of life, to name few reasons.

The health care in Europe is not free, we just pay indirectly through our taxes.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#119

Post by yvdriess » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

Gravityloss wrote: post #48

So, what would a new bleeding edge modern architecture and instruction set look like if one could start from scratch? I assume general computing so cell phones and servers are the target.

I personally would love to see a frontend architecture that more closely resembles the backend: dataflow execution. It's been researched in the 80s/90s, with some hybrids popping up in literature from time to time (TRIPS, ADAM, etc)

Counterpoint: processors have gotten so good at extracting ILP from a sequential ISA that I wonder how much benefit you would gain from a dataflow ISA. The downside is that it would require to completely rethink and redo the software stack. (efficient par to seq is just as hard as efficient seq to par)

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#120

Post by erk__ » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

newbie578 wrote: post #101

Unfortunately, does anyone even takes the EU serious nowadays in tech? The more I follow the European tech scene, the more disappointed I become. EU's biggest tech company aside of ARM is Spotify... Almost every second startup I read about in https://www.eu-startups.com/ is a fintech/budgeting app which is trying to "disrupt" banking. Revolut is the biggest player, yet they are literally throwing money to achieve a m…

The biggest tech firm in europe is SAP, which is the largest non american software company. Although it is not a very "cool" company compared to startups.