Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#181

Post by the_arun » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 7:17 AM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #147

fairity wrote: post #81

> Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed? I think these studies are all significantly flawed because successful people with dark personality traits learn to cover up their dark traits. As a result, the cohort of people with "dark traits" in these observational studies will inevitably be skewed towards those who are less successful/intelligent/adaptable. Possessing "dark traits" basically means…

This is absolutely true in my experience. Early in life I would go on to avoid obviously manipulative people and that mostly worked. As you get older you run into people who are more skilled manipulators. These people realize that in order to be good at it you need to be able to hide your intentions and seem like you’re doing the opposite. This fakery can get so elaborate that sometimes it can turn into a quasi genui…

+1 on your analysis & suggestion.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#182

Post by Izkata » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 7:44 AM UTC

johnsonjo wrote: post #153

User23 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sociopaths are great at empathy. Empathy is the ability to observe and understand others emotions without actually connecting. It’s absolutely essential to be a successful dark triad tape. Sympathy is the “light” counterpart, where you actually emotionally resonate with the other person. Obviously this makes nasty behavior less attractive since you feel the emotional effects too. And now you know why corporate psycho…

I totally disagree. I’ve only read one book about the topic of the dark triad, sympathy, and empathy, called Social Intelligence. Basically I’ll simplify the definitions for brevity’s sake. Sympathy is that you feel bad for someone. Empathy is actually putting yourself in their shoes and feeling what they feel and adapting to their needs and understanding them as they are. So, maybe you have the terms backwards, or m…

I'm pretty sure your understanding is the right one. It goes even further if you venture away from science and into psychics powers - "empaths" are the psychic subset that literally feel others' emotions.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#183

Post by Geminidog » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:18 AM UTC

darkerside wrote: post #172

Geminidog wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't ring true to you but your truth differs from the science. The idea that everyone has an equal and balanced amount of dark and light traits and is therefore impossible to classify is misguided. There are many people who can fit into the category of dark and light and there are many people who are complex as you describe. At the very far end of the spectrum are people with antisocial disorder or more commonl…

I'm not saying they are equal parts light and dark. I do think it is dangerous and misguided to apply binary thinking to complex individuals. While there are psychopaths and sociopaths in this world, in the overwhelming majority of cases, your boss/coworker/rival of the moment is not one of them.

You don't have evidence for this. You are simply viewing others as a reflection of yourself.

If there are people at the tail end of the spectrum there must be people in between people who are centered and people who are extreme. Where and how these groups aggregate is hard to measure experimentally but it is clear that humans can lie and if they are not in the center of the spectrum and more evil than normal than likely they won't reveal it.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#184

Post by carlmr » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:40 AM UTC

cutemonster wrote: post #142

grugagag wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "they need me and the company might fail if I leave" Isn't this also some kind of hero mentality that these people enjoy being part of? Eventually they realize it doesn't pay bills but while it does make them feel great and that's the temporary payoff. We all learn from our mistakes. It might also be genuine kinship with their coworkers and this is exactly where the leadership of the said company is extremely smart…

What about nurses working 12 hour shifts, helping people survive covid-19 -- now they are needed, or people will die. But I never heard about them getting any special extra compensation for working that much and also a bit risking their life. Also, nurses are often women. Are they light pattern people getting exploited? Why won't society raise their salaries, so more people will work as nurses or at least not resign…

>Are they light pattern people getting exploited? Why won't society raise their salaries, so more people will work as nurses or at least not resign

I would guess that most nurses get into the job because they want to help people, that seems like a really light pattern trait.

Society only very indirectly decides their salaries. At least in most countries right now it's a market mechanism that is ruthless. Of course there are other humans that may or may not have moral qualms. But as long as some people are ready to exploit others they have a pretty clear financial competitive edge (all else being equal).

If nurse salaries are low the economic answer is simple, it's because there are enough (or too many) nurses willing to take this job at that pay level.

The societal answer is not that simple. We actually want more nurses, because they are needed. We also don't want to pay more for healthcare, maybe we can't, America seems to be at the limit here, Western Europe is already close. So if you want more and better paid nurses without paying more, that only leaves shifting money from insurances, hospitals and pharmaceutical/medical equipment companies to nurses.

And to get to do that there has to be some market pressure or regulation.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#185

Post by carlmr » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 8:46 AM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #87

fairity wrote: post #81

> Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed? I think these studies are all significantly flawed because successful people with dark personality traits learn to cover up their dark traits. As a result, the cohort of people with "dark traits" in these observational studies will inevitably be skewed towards those who are less successful/intelligent/adaptable. Possessing "dark traits" basically means…

If only HN had a gold star type thing, instead you'll have to settle for being included in my notes. > having greater optionality in your actions is likely to lead to a more optimal path towards your goal. One of the frequent issues I hit with other people is that they will "block off" a choice before actually evaluating it. They will, for instance, refuse to bring up that they have another job offer in a salary nego…

>One of the frequent issues I hit with other people is that they will "block off" a choice before actually evaluating it.

I constantly experience it and don't understand it, personally. I'm not sure if it's a dark trait in and of itself to be able to think through many options though.

I'm sometimes quite frustrated when people will say "we can't do this" before even hearing the end of the sentence. I've always chalked it up to lack of fantasy, but maybe it's a very strong moral compass as you suggest.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#186

Post by cutemonster » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:05 AM UTC

finnthehuman wrote: post #30

alexpetralia wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does high agreeableness necessarily translate into more empathy, or vice versa? I define empathy as "knowing your customer" (whoever it may be). You can be very attuned to this whether you are agreeable or disagreeable, no? (Perhaps this is not a widely accepted definition of empathy, and that definition instead somehow indicates "being nice"? I don't think being nice/agreeable necessarily helps you know who you're s…

>Does high agreeableness necessarily translate into more empathy I think the difference is that the personality trait called "agreeableness" doesn't mean someone is a pushover. But I do agree with you in general, my biggest gripe with pop psych as of late is the way "empathy" is used interchangeably with being nice. Has a quiet person failed to empathize if there is no change in their outward behavior? I'd say obviou…

> I've been trying to work out why we talk about empathy when we mean being nice.

Somewhat many people aren't "good" at feeling empathy, and some brains are 100% incapable -- and maybe they cannot see any difference between empathy and faked niceness.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#187

Post by virtual_void » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 10:57 AM UTC

floydnoel wrote: post #164

cutemonster wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about nurses working 12 hour shifts, helping people survive covid-19 -- now they are needed, or people will die. But I never heard about them getting any special extra compensation for working that much and also a bit risking their life. Also, nurses are often women. Are they light pattern people getting exploited? Why won't society raise their salaries, so more people will work as nurses or at least not resign…

> I never heard about them getting any special extra compensation for working that much and also a bit risking their life Nurse pay has increased quite a bit this year, now reaching $5k-$10k a week...

I’m astonished it’s that high. I’d be interested in seeing a source for your data point.

To be clear, i believe they deserve a high level of compensation it’s just that they’re usually treated badly compared to the societal benefit they provide.

Certainly in the uk the median annual salary is about £26k. The above figures would mean US nurses are earning ~12x more.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#188

Post by not_knuth » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 12:57 PM UTC

mediaman wrote: post #88

fairity wrote: post #81

> Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed? I think these studies are all significantly flawed because successful people with dark personality traits learn to cover up their dark traits. As a result, the cohort of people with "dark traits" in these observational studies will inevitably be skewed towards those who are less successful/intelligent/adaptable. Possessing "dark traits" basically means…

I agree with you. Smart people with dark traits become really good at painting their objectives in moral, altruistic terms. They tend to limit the display of their "dark traits" through actions to infrequent events where they stand to gain significantly and will suffer the least blowback. This is because they understand that most people build trust by observing small actions. So the smart+dark personality combos foll…

Gee, one could've almost mistaken one of these people for a regular nice person who has encountered bumps along the road (I say this with a deadpan face).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#189

Post by floydnoel » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 1:07 PM UTC

virtual_void wrote: post #187

floydnoel wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never heard about them getting any special extra compensation for working that much and also a bit risking their life Nurse pay has increased quite a bit this year, now reaching $5k-$10k a week...

I’m astonished it’s that high. I’d be interested in seeing a source for your data point. To be clear, i believe they deserve a high level of compensation it’s just that they’re usually treated badly compared to the societal benefit they provide. Certainly in the uk the median annual salary is about £26k. The above figures would mean US nurses are earning ~12x more.

Ok, I’ll do the googling for you... https://lmgtfy.app/?q=nurse+pay+pandemic

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#190

Post by joyeuse6701 » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 1:31 PM UTC

virtual_void wrote: post #187

floydnoel wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never heard about them getting any special extra compensation for working that much and also a bit risking their life Nurse pay has increased quite a bit this year, now reaching $5k-$10k a week...

I’m astonished it’s that high. I’d be interested in seeing a source for your data point. To be clear, i believe they deserve a high level of compensation it’s just that they’re usually treated badly compared to the societal benefit they provide. Certainly in the uk the median annual salary is about £26k. The above figures would mean US nurses are earning ~12x more.

Wife is a nurse in the USA, the pay is much higher than Europe, $90k+ in California is common. Crisis nursing has also increased the pay in times of COVID. Additionally, there are specialities within nursing that pay even more, such as nurse practitioner.