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Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

thatgeoguy.ca

111–120 of 123 posts

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any? It costs the Earth to build in America. It might not even be possible. Maybe you can assemble in America but it seems like a fool's errand. Like five people want this and they're also so obsessive about other things that they won't buy your stuff unless it's perfect anyway.

The problem in the US is that everything is aligned against making stuff here. The unions have been in damage control mode for decades, trying to avoid losing the factories that employ two hundred to the more automated factories that employ twenty, but then as a result losing 100% rather than 90% of the jobs to China. We impose labor and environmental rules on products made in the US but don't require the same standa…

> trying to avoid losing the factories that employ two hundred to the more automated factories that employ twenty

Do you have an example where this happened?

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#112
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the major reason I deferred my Evergreen Librem 5 order for the Fir batch (set to ship in ~1 year), which will (a) have a smaller process size (14nm vs 28nm currently) and (b) allow for more time for optimizations.

Fir batch will probably have its own disadvantages: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque... .

Thank you for that link - I had not seen that - my impression was that Fir would be a die shrink and otherwise identical.

Reading through the explanation, I think the tradeoff is still worth it for me since I care more about battery life and heat than full convergence (I plan to use this device as a portable Linux machine on the go, not so much (if at all) docked). I do think Purism should have been clearer about this though.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#113
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just speaking for myself, as somebody who has preordered a Librem 5, but may not be representative at all of the wider community around it: I want a pocketable Linux device I can take with me everywhere. That's it. I don't care how well it works as a phone. I want a fully-featured, honest-to-god GNU/Linux terminal in my pocket that I can use to do anything that I could do on a (massively underpowered) Linux laptop, e…

You might be interested in things like the Pandora/Pyra, the Cosmo Communicator or the GPD Win.

Thank you :-) I own both a Win 2 (Windows for gaming) and a Pocket 2 (Linux, for study/coding) and am very happy with both of them - but neither is actually pocketable, which is why I'm looking towards the Librem 5 (and have also considered a Pinephone, and would be very tempted to get one if they come out with something closer to Librem 5 in terms of power)

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#114
post #80
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PinePhone is _so close_. Some suggestions, as a user, to get it over the edge: 1. Every app in the Manjaro distribution that ships pre-installed should at least fit on the screen; many apps have popups that do not. 2. Dialing should never cause a reboot; calling voicemail has crashed the phone for me. 3. Either give up on having a camera or make it _fast_. 4. Some kind of loading indicator for apps would be nice.…

Would love a phone w/out a camera. I do not know why they are seen as necessity.

I use a fancy Sony mirrorless camera for photography that is meant to be kept and looked at in the future. However, it is pretty obvious why cameras on phones are necessary even to people with good cameras: when communicating with people over a messenger app like Signal or Whatsapp, one quite often has to send them a quick pic to get their opinion. (For example, today I didn't know which kind of olive oil my partner wanted me to pick up from the supermarket, so I just sent a picture of what was available on the shelf.)

Sure, I could have lugged my full-size camera along and then sent it over to the phone via wi-fi, but using a real camera in a supermarket is going to get you some unpleasant attention from staff.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#115
post #82

> For the vast majority of people, the Librem 5 and Pinephone are probably not worth even considering. The GNU userspace and associated “mobile” paradigms within it are very much not ready for daily use. > Linux phones are definitely not yet ready to be daily drivers Despite the author making this point twice and some of the negativity regarding Purism's pricing - I still feel very good about the state of Linux phone…

The move towards functional linux phones are moving forward and with noticeable steps, and when my libre 5 phone arrive it will be interesting to see how close they have gotten. That said, my expectations are low when it comes to the base set in daily use: 1) managing 3G/2G network. There seems to be quite a few hacks in the telecom infrastructure and I have long suspected that mobile phone operating systems are simp…

Honestly, I wouldn't expect much from GPS on the Pinephone (at least the 2GB version): the only maps apps available are extremely bare-bones, little more than tech demos compared to Android software like OSMAnd or Maps.me.

Also, while Anbox has been used in some cases so hackers can say "See, I did it", I don't think Pinephone users are actually going to be using Anbox on an everyday basis. It is too RAM-heavy and too taxing on the Pinephone’s weak processor. People expect to be able to near-instantly switch between apps (e.g. between Signal and Firefox), and that is probably never going to be possible on this iteration of the Pinephone.

With regard to music and Bluetooth, however, already Mobian on the Pinephone gives me the same functionality with my Bluetooth amp as my Android phone. No complaints there.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#116

> For the vast majority of people, the Librem 5 and Pinephone are probably not worth even considering. The GNU userspace and associated “mobile” paradigms within it are very much not ready for daily use. > Linux phones are definitely not yet ready to be daily drivers Despite the author making this point twice and some of the negativity regarding Purism's pricing - I still feel very good about the state of Linux phone…

Sailfish OS, MeeGo and Maemo have been proving it since 2009. I've been running linux on my phone since 2012.

The Nokia phones had closed binary blobs that required a custom kernel version (so e.g. the Nokia N900 is forever stuck on kernel 2.6), as well as modems that were not isolated from memory. Also, many UI components on Nokia’s OS and Sailfish were closed-source. Yes, they used a lot of Linux-associated software, but the reason why the Pinephone is getting such buzz is that it is both completely open and also it runs a mainline kernel that can be upgraded at will.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any? It costs the Earth to build in America. It might not even be possible. Maybe you can assemble in America but it seems like a fool's errand. Like five people want this and they're also so obsessive about other things that they won't buy your stuff unless it's perfect anyway.

The problem in the US is that everything is aligned against making stuff here. The unions have been in damage control mode for decades, trying to avoid losing the factories that employ two hundred to the more automated factories that employ twenty, but then as a result losing 100% rather than 90% of the jobs to China. We impose labor and environmental rules on products made in the US but don't require the same standa…

> The problem in the US is that everything is aligned against making stuff here. The unions have been in damage control mode for decades, trying to avoid losing the factories that employ two hundred to the more automated factories that employ twenty, but then as a result losing 100% rather than 90% of the jobs to China.

Short-termism around corporate earnings has done more damage to U.S. industry than unions ever could. And to be clear, I don't think China is any better, despite popular (misconceived) impressions to the contrary.

> But it would imply paying more for stuff because it's not being made in a polluting sweatshop in an undemocratic country which is acting like the nation state version of a 19th century robber baron.

That's increasingly not applicable with automation as well as the plunging cost of renewable energy. There's natural gas being flared in the Dakotas because it is uneconomical to deliver it. And as I understand it both North and South Dakota are not known for an overly restrictive regulatory environment or leadership. It's more a matter of volition IMO.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#118
post #26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only ~2.5x the cost of the Made in China version. I'm intrigued that you think it could be done for less? Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right?

> Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right? An experienced factory worker (5-7+ years) with professional training, certifications, and clean track record costs at least 15k CNY a month in salary, and 6-10k more in pension/insurance/other social payments. Factory workers in US get how much now? > An early career Factor…

The people doing the final assembly of the Librem 5 USA are working in Purism's Fulfillment Center in Carlsbad, California, which is a suburb of San Diego. Housing is very expensive in the San Diego area, so we are talking about wages for assembly workers that are much higher than $13 or $14 per hour. It sounds like the company making the PCB's is also located in the San Diego area (based on what Purism said about its Librem 5 DevKit), which means that Purism is paying a company that likely makes prototype boards, which means that Purism is paying a lot more for its boards than Chinese mass production prices. I doubt that Purism has more than a couple hundred orders for the Librem 5 USA, but it says that it will store the parts for the phone and do the final assembly itself. It also is doing just-in-time manufacturing of the phone in very small quantities. All of this has very high unit costs.

Frankly, ThatGeoGuy's assessment of the Librem 5 USA is ridiculous. First of all, he doesn't evaluate what it costs to set up a facility in a San Diego suburb that stores parts with supply chain security, orders small-scale PCBA production, and does small-scale final assembly. Second, he ignores the fact that the Librem 5 USA is a niche product for corporate and government clients who need supply chain security. It is competing with products like the Silent Circle's Silent Phone, Motorola Solutions' LEX L11 and Bittium's Tough Mobile 2. The only one of those phones which publicly lists its price is the Bittium Tough Mobile 2, which costs €1550 (US$1816), so the Librem 5 USA is in the same price range. Third, he totally ignores the cost of paying roughly a dozen developers to work for 3.3 years to develop a Linux phone. How does a company recover those high development costs that have gone way over budget? One way is to develop a side product with high profit margins that caters to niche customers with specialized needs.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sailfish OS, MeeGo and Maemo have been proving it since 2009. I've been running linux on my phone since 2012.

The Nokia phones had closed binary blobs that required a custom kernel version (so e.g. the Nokia N900 is forever stuck on kernel 2.6), as well as modems that were not isolated from memory. Also, many UI components on Nokia’s OS and Sailfish were closed-source. Yes, they used a lot of Linux-associated software, but the reason why the Pinephone is getting such buzz is that it is both completely open and also it runs a…

> Yes, they used a lot of Linux-associated software

That's a bit of an understatement. It's not 'a lot'. Everything running on those phones is a GNU/linux application. The fact that there are binary blobs and that the UI was closed source doesn't take away from that. The post I was replying to was complaining about linux phones, not about "open hardware/open source" phones.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an open source phone where you can get the board done at one of the pcb huts, order parts from Mouser, 3D print the case and put everything together?

One gonna need at least a few grands worth of strange equipment normally used by people who repair electronics (the strange equipment used by manufacturers costs millions). Having prior experience with these tools is recommended. Another obstacle is 3d printed case, phones need both high precision and high strength, AFAIK many 3d printers/materials lack at least one of these properties. Still it looks doable, and app…

You can certainly do microsoldering in $1000 area now. Not sure about BGA as I have not done those, but I can imagine an oven wouldn't cost more than $1000 as well. There are so many affordable tools available now, it is within reach to build your own phone.
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