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Let’s mug a startup founder

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Re: Let’s mug a startup founder

#71
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with a personal guarantee is that the lender will always take everything they possibly can, and a personal guarantee leaves no boundaries. It makes it impossible to start up without risking fundamentals of life like housing and transportation, and almost definitely leads to bankruptcy in case things go south. This is OK for some people in the 18-25 age range when they can just go move back in with Mom, bu…

Worth adding that given the likelihoods of failure of a startup (high), risking the house on it would be insane.

yeah, they say that if you work for someone who puts their own money in to the business you have an insane boss.

On the other hand, this is how most small businesses owners I've met did it. Most of us lack the connections to get people to give us money on "eh, if it doesn't work out, we forget about it." terms.

Hell, try to get any kind of lease as a small company without personally co-signing. "If you don't believe in your company, why should I?" is something that more than one landlord has told me.

So yeah, while you could say it is insane, it's also quite difficult to get a company off the ground without accepting some personal liability on the downside.

Re: Let’s mug a startup founder

#72
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for being the voice of reason lionhearted. It's a little to early to condemn this incubator. The rush to judgement does highlight the need to be totally transparent these days. If you fail to spell out your terms clearly you're going to get raked over the coals by some blogger. BTW. I don't see what's wrong with a personal guarantee. It's nice that you are willing to risk other peoples money, but I think you s…

The problem with a personal guarantee is that the lender will always take everything they possibly can, and a personal guarantee leaves no boundaries. It makes it impossible to start up without risking fundamentals of life like housing and transportation, and almost definitely leads to bankruptcy in case things go south. This is OK for some people in the 18-25 age range when they can just go move back in with Mom, bu…

the 'safety net' that saved me from bankruptcy (and bankruptcy will save your children from sleeping in the gutter) was personal earning power; in '06-early '07, when my company was deeply in the hole, I found a body shop willing to do corp-to-corp and turned myself out. I worked for other people until the debit was paid off[1].

The other side of that is when you think about what 'deep in debit' means, you should calibrate that to your own personal earning power. This is easier than it sounds; it's hard to get people to loan you more than you can reasonably pay back. Your creditors fear your bankruptcy more than you do.

From what I've seen, starting a failed business does not decrease your earning power. I know I'm a more valuable employee now; aside from the technical skills I've obtained, I now understand a lot more of what the boss actually wants. (unfortunately, most of that knowledge only applies to small companies. Large corps, it seems, operate under different rules, rules I still do not understand.)

[1] I ended up deciding not to shut down the company, so I continued the arrangement until the company was making enough money to pay me a living wage.

Re: Let’s mug a startup founder

#73

Hi – I’m Mark Hales from Oxygen Accelerator. I just wanted to say we’re following all the discussions on here and it’s helpful to hear your opinions and advice based on your experiences. I just wanted to make a couple of points to clarify a few things. We intend to provide a fuller response once we’ve spent some time considering all the feedback. First of all the loan we are talking about is a ‘soft’ loan to the busi…

Mark - the trouble with your accelerator is this: It's a deal that not even you would've taken when you first started. To promote it as "Breathing life into tech startups" is irresponsible.

[deleted]

Re: Let’s mug a startup founder

#75
So let's say that the hit rate for follow-on investments for a TechStars company is somewhere close to 70% (that's fairly accurate). That doesn't necessarily represent success, but it's a start. Y Combinator is probably better than that. Now let's say that a "lesser" accelerator's hit rate is maybe half that. Still a 35% chance of some measure of success. Now maybe there's a 10% chance by going the pure bootstrap route, maybe less. So taking the money--and the guidance--in whatever form, makes you maybe three times more likely to be able to do what you love for a fairly extended period of time. Not to mention the fact that oftentimes the accelerator provides free or discounted services for being a cohort company. Good legal for a deep discount, legal office hours, design consults, dinners with VCs, etc.

I can't speak for what Oxygen is doing, or whether they're providing these services or not. But many accelerators that aren't called Y Combinator or TechStars are, and though there won't be as many successes to come out of those, there no doubt will be some. There may even be one or two who attend, learn a bit, fail, and then come back to apply at one of the big dogs later down the road.

Re: Let’s mug a startup founder

#76
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reason number seven million we are not registered in Germany. Seriously, though, how difficult is it to get a limited liability going in Germany? Moving there next month.

Pretty easy nowadays. The traditional way is the GmbH, which required you to have a capital of 25k Euros. Now as we're in the EU, you could register your company everywhere and lots of countries provided you with easier access to limited liability. As an answer to this, there's a beginner's version, the "UG", where the lower limit of starting capital is 1 Euro and unless you have more than three founders, there are f…

Good - sounds more competitive.

It cost us 100€ with min of 1€ capital in the Republic + 10€ legal swearing fee. I filled in the form myself.

Re: Let’s mug a startup founder

#77
Also, don't forget that if the company goes into liquidation, debt gets preference to equity holders when it comes to distributing assets. So for all the "trust me" rhetoric, it remains theoretically possible that the creditor (ie the "incubator") could call in the loan, and if the cash is not at hand, they could force the company into liquidation. They would then end up with title to any IP, contracts or any other company assets.

Re: Let’s mug a startup founder

#78

Hi – I’m Mark Hales from Oxygen Accelerator. I just wanted to say we’re following all the discussions on here and it’s helpful to hear your opinions and advice based on your experiences. I just wanted to make a couple of points to clarify a few things. We intend to provide a fuller response once we’ve spent some time considering all the feedback. First of all the loan we are talking about is a ‘soft’ loan to the busi…

It seems you are saying "we'd like to recoup cash from our companies, if possible, without forcing them into premature dividends or exits, and without diluting our equity." Yes?

Well, that is a preferred equity instrument, eg, "This bit gets paid before the common equity gets a dividend or distribution."

Preferreds generally have a stated "interest" rate, but payments are at management discretion (accruing to principal when not made) but there is no reason that can't be zero. They can also have maturity dates for repayment. Yes, it looks a lot like a loan, and that's sort of typical for this "junior to all other obligations / senior to other equity" layer of the capital structure. (And note that there could well be legal and tax differences between preferred and debt. I don't know how it complicates the documentation you're already doing with the loan and equity pieces. IANAL.)

The important difference for you is jargon. "Preferred equity" doesn't carry a suggestion of personal liability, it's equity with a return clearly tied to the venture's success, but ahead of the common. Your founders won't know the term, but any advisor they speak with should.

Described thus, I still don't know if I like your proposition, or what others should think of it, but I'm closer to understanding just what that proposition is.

Re: Let’s mug a startup founder

#79
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to make a good living with little risk, be a dev, a designer or something like that. Given that most startups fail, and of the ones that don't, most are only modestly successful, you'll probably be better off (from a purely economic standpoint) as a paid employee (or service provider) to a startup than as an entrepreneur starting one up. I think there's something magical (insane?) about doing your own sta…

Except the founder gets paid either way, and paid more than anyone else usually. If the business goes bust nobody takes his house, or his things - he just finds another job or starts another business with VC welfare.

I don't know if that's always true (at least, not for founders I want to work for). I worked at a startup where the founder totally ruined his personal credit, and was paid a small portion of what everyone else was making until well into profitability. I bought a beautiful house in a good neighborhood while working for him. He _still_ lives in a tiny rented condo.

If things work out, I'll walk away with enough to pay down some of my mortgage, and he'll be set for a life of luxury. But if things don't work out, then I still have a great house, and plenty of savings. He'll have no credit, and no savings.

It seems like a poor use of funding to pay the founder a great salary (i.e. more than key employees) at an early stage startup: before profitability, or even early into profitability.

Re: Let’s mug a startup founder

#80
It looks like we have raised some controversy and questions around the funding model we have chosen for Oxygen Accelerator. So this blog post is in response to some of the questions/points raised:

Q. We could just go get a bank loan and not have to give up any equity?

A. It is true there are alternative sources of funding including bank loans through the government supported Small Firms Loan Guarantee scheme; this loan is only available to companies that can prove the ability to repay it, however these loans charge a facility fee, are interest bearing, have fixed payment terms, and the founders are required to give personal guarantees. The 70% guarantee made to banks by the government only kicks in once the personal guarantees from the founders have been exhausted. Our loan is interest free, has no fixed term, is secured only against the business, does not have any personal guarantees and is only repayable if and when the business can afford it without jeopardy to the business. If the business fails (which inevitably some will) the loan is written off. It is made at a time when in most cases the founders have an idea; they may not have incorporated, may not have a business plan or even a well thought out strategy.

Lots of people have understood what we are offering – here is a comment on HN from ‘lionhearted’ which sums it up well.

“I could see circumstances that I’d take this deal in a heartbeat – starting a brand new company with 94% equity, $33k cash in the bank, and a $33k loan with very flexible repayment terms seems like it’d have a much higher chance of success than starting with 100% equity, $0 cash, and $0 debt.”

Q. Isn’t 6% equity for a 20K loan a ridiculous interest rate?

A. The 6% of equity is not directly related to the £20k. The 6% equity is in return for the full programme, including aftercare. We are enabling companies to reach an entirely new level, through the provision of facilities, mentor guidance, accommodation, investors, an evergreen loan and office space for 6-months – plus we will keep a vested interest, providing an open-door policy to the team in Birmingham. An important point is that it’s a loan of UP to £20k – purely to enable the teams to get onto and through the programme. It is not seen as an investment to last them post-bootcamp, but allows them to reach ‘investor day’. They don’t have to take this loan if they don’t require it.

Q. Why wouldn’t I just bootstrap rather than taking a loan?

A. Bootstrapping is a great way for a startup to get off the ground, but often requires the founders to take on debt via credit cards or loans from friends and family which also have to be paid back. The difference here is we are offering a programme (facilities, mentor guidance, accommodation, investors and office space for 6-months) that includes an interest free loan to your business with no personal guarantees. Here is a HN comment from tptacek

“Loans and lines of credit often don’t require equity. They frequently do require you to put up your house. You cannot pull an interest-free loan, backed only by your corporation, off a tree. It is a real offering. It is not reasonable to call it a “mugging”.”

Q. I’m having a hard time understanding why they want the money back if they’re taking so much equity.

A. Typically it takes 3 years + to get a return on an equity deal so if you are running an accelerator at least once a year you need to be able to fund it for at least 3 years before getting (3 * £200k = £600k + running costs = £1million) any return. By using an evergreen loan model we stand a chance of returning some (not all) money to the programme quicker than 3 years and allowing us to sustain the programme and support more entrepreneurs which has to be a good thing for the entire community.

Q. If we make it big it’ll be 6% of a much larger amount (think $10,000,000+). $600,000 is a little more than the interest you’d pay on a $33,000 loan at 6%?

A. The type of high-growth tech businesses we are looking to support on the programme will need additional rounds of funding and therefore our 6% equity will be significantly diluted. It would be great to think that all businesses will exit for $10million + but the reality is very few will so the return is unlikely to be anything like that.

Q. Not all accelerators are equal

A. I agree and not all startups are equal and what works for one doesn’t always work for another. I don’t seek to compete with Tech Stars, Seedcamp, Y combinator or any other scheme. I applaud their efforts in what they do for aspiring entrepreneurs; any reference I make to them is around the fact that we are offering a 13-week bootcamp that is mentor intensive in order to assist companies in raising their next round of funding.

Q. This is a rip off for startup founders who don’t know any better.

A. I think this does the tech community a dis-service. The vast majority have a very good understanding of these matters and are more than capable of weighing up what is the best programme for their startup. The fact that this is not an identical offering to other accelerators does not make it a rip off, it makes it different.

Q. The loan information is buried in the FAQ’s

A. The FAQ’s are hardly buried they are very clearly displayed on the Accelerator page. All the accelerator sites use the FAQ’s to provide the detail around their programmes. However, to ensure its very clear we have added the words “soft loan” next to the £20k on the home page.

Q Why don’t we just get Angel or VC investment?

A. There are a lucky few startups that turn up and pitch an idea to an Angel or VC and get funding but there are more that are not that lucky and have to actually prove traction, have a credible business plan or be revenue generating. What accelerator programmes like ours do is help your startup get to that stage quickly (13-weeks), which means you are much more likely to then find the investment you need to grow the business to the next stage. Of course this is not the only way to become investment-ready; there are plenty of others and only you can make the best choice for your business.

Q. There are lots of accelerators why do we need one that offers loans

A. My experience is that there aren’t enough accelerators to support startups and many talented individuals with great ideas fail to get the support (financial and non-financial) to get their ideas off the ground. My programme is aimed to support those people that see the value of the programme; if they need neither the money or the support because they have all the skills and connections to go it alone then clearly they wouldn’t benefit from the programme. The fact that hundreds of people applying to Tech stars, Y Combinator and other accelerators aren’t successful suggests there is a need for more support to be provided (YC probably got 1000+ applications and selected 60 teams, so that’s 940 teams who will not receive support this year alone).

The rationale for it being an evergreen loan is so that the ones that do repay the loan, at a time when arguably they no longer need it, is to allow other entrepreneurs the same opportunity for the long term. Other schemes such as Difference Engine were funded by regional grant type funding which, as government cash ran out, were closed and therefore no longer open to budding entrepreneurs, despite the fact that many of the companies that benefited from the programme have gone on to successfully raise further rounds of funding with the assistance of the programme and arguably don’t need the original funding anymore. Our aim is to make the programme sustainable and not at the whim of investor sentiment. The evergreen loan model in theory returns money back to the programme quicker than an equity-only model and hence allows us to support more entrepreneurs.

Mark Hales http://oxygenaccelerator.com/blog/2011/05/oh-no-its-a-loan/

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