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Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

psyche.co

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Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#81
> Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

I think these studies are all significantly flawed because successful people with dark personality traits learn to cover up their dark traits.

As a result, the cohort of people with "dark traits" in these observational studies will inevitably be skewed towards those who are less successful/intelligent/adaptable.

Possessing "dark traits" basically means you aren't limited by a moral compass. For any given decision, there's a universe of choices - some choices are moral and others are immoral. "Dark" people can choose from the entire universe of choices, while "light" people can only choose from the moral universe of choices.

It should be obvious, then, that people with "dark traits" are more likely to be successful iff they learn to cover up their dark traits. After all, having greater optionality in your actions is likely to lead to a more optimal path towards your goal.

From my experience working with people that run high in these "dark traits", it's not necessarily a bad thing as long as you put them in positions where their incentives are aligned with those around them.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#82

The article subtly flips the script at the end so much we might be missing the point if we look too much into the title of the article. The "system" we've collectively developed forces blank slate souls to develop and play out our learned behavior in order to survive, or feel like we're surviving, in the world. But, as the article explains, we do not (typically) inherently hold, are not born with, nor do genetics cod…

We're not blank slates when we're born, and it's well established that it's ~50% genetics and ~50% environment.

Edit: furthermore it's compounded by the fact that the environment changes the expression of the genes (Gene × Environment interaction) and the genes influence the environment (gene-environment correlation rGE)

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#83
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, narcissistsic sociopaths can have a high capacity for empathy in the sense of knowing what others feel and think while also ruthlessly manipulating I initially thought this wasn't considered empathy, but TIL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Classification : > Empathy is generally divided into two major components: ... > Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy: the capacity to respond with an ap…

On the other hand, someone on the autism spectrum may be able to emotionally empathize if they find it clear what the other person feels, but may not be able to cognitively intuit complicated webs of unspoken social relations and resulting feelings of many layers of "I expected him/her to know that I think he ...."

Yes exactly, I feel this could actually be further split to 3 mostly disjoint concepts:

1. Can I understand why person X would feel emotion Y in situation Z? People probably vary the most on this one when they themselves would not feel emotion Y in situation Z, because it becomes about how well they can put themselves in the shoes of someone with different values/priors (from a more cerebral perspective). There's also a difference between retroactive explanation and prediction of course, but without extensive knowledge on person X prediction can be very hard in the "gray areas" mentioned.

2. If I know that person X feels emotion Y, do I feel emotion Y myself? Again, most people probably have this for their closest friends/family, but the degree to which one has this for people they casually encounter seems to vary widely. Probably due to both inherent personality trait differences, and varying circumstances over time - for example if you currently have some intense mood for personal reasons it may be harder to feel an opposing mood because of someone else (but easier when it's the same mood maybe?)

My understanding is 1 is cognitive empathy and 2 is affective empathy, but I'm not as sure whether 2 encompasses all of affective empathy, because there is also:

3. Given limited information about the situation, can one still figure out the emotion someone is feeling? This allows empathy #2 to be applied more readily, and in cases where your actions are relevant (coworkers, friends, etc.) to investigate further and possibly apply empathy #1.

I'm not sure whether 3 is itself considered part of empathy, but certainly it is very important in being able to "use" your empathy in daily life, so it functionally is part of empathy. And this is likely the trait most frequently impaired in individuals on the spectrum, as it requires recognizing subtle, often non-verbal, behavioral cues. I'm not super up to date on the literature but I don't believe 1 or 2 above are considered to be impaired in most cases of Autism, and there definitely are articles out there about how it's incorrect to say those on the spectrum have low empathy.

It's hard to rate oneself accurately, but personally I would say I am above average at 1, average at 2, and below average at 3 (solid at little linguistic hints but horrible at picking up on facial expressions, posture, tone of voice, etc.)

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#84

I would take this article with a grain of salt. It gets a lot wrong and a lot of it is questionable. For example, notice something about the stats it gives throughout the article? It's whole numbers, and with large variations: 10-20 per cent of individuals, 30-50 per cent of people, and so on. That variation and the whole numbers should be a read flag. When performing a study very precise numbers pop up. This isn't a…

> We immediately know this is a fluff piece because it uses pop psychology terminology, instead of the actual terminology. Using the actual terminology in a popular article is what turns that terminology into pop psychology terminology. You can ask for popular articles to use the current terms, or you can ask for psychology terms to retain their precise clinical meaning, but you can't have both.

No, you can have both. It's as simple as the author explaining what they mean. But this also requires the author to actually know what they're talking about, and popsci article authors very often don't.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that higher agreeableness (more empathy) has a negative effect on salary, That seems plausible or even obvious. All things being equal, an empathetic person will value a happy work environment (relatively) more than a high salary. They'll avoid the sabotage-all-others big law firm and go into research (avoiding personal conflicts), become a public defender (empathy), judge, etc.

Research involves lots of personal conflict. You couldn't imagine how cutthroat the fight for funding, positions, paper authorships, citations etc can be. Lots of small minded machinators.

To some, that's part of the thrill.

I think the cultural aspect of this study must be taken into consideration.

Speaking as someone who can from a country with a relatively high population (India), we were taught that in a race to the top, its either eat or be eaten, and that machinations are a vital part of success as long as they do not tarnish the way you're perceived.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always found these kind of studies bullshit: the worse serial killers and pedophiles were sometimes described as "nice" and "charming" people. That is at first sight. Psychopaths have a surface level charm but spending enough time with them and the illusion shatters. A real agreable and nice person has that as a baseline, that’s a big facet of their personality.

> That is at first sight. Psychopaths have a surface level charm If they participated in psychology studies, which category would they fall in?

I couldn’t answer that. There could be deceptive people whose intention is to subvert such studies but I doubt they’d make much of a difference. All I could sat is that the psychopath’s charm is always exerted with some goal in mind.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#87
post #81

> Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed? I think these studies are all significantly flawed because successful people with dark personality traits learn to cover up their dark traits. As a result, the cohort of people with "dark traits" in these observational studies will inevitably be skewed towards those who are less successful/intelligent/adaptable. Possessing "dark traits" basically means…

If only HN had a gold star type thing, instead you'll have to settle for being included in my notes.

> having greater optionality in your actions is likely to lead to a more optimal path towards your goal.

One of the frequent issues I hit with other people is that they will "block off" a choice before actually evaluating it. They will, for instance, refuse to bring up that they have another job offer in a salary negotiation because they feel it's "unfair".

One case of this was a friend who doesn't want to leave a job where they're being made to work 12+ hour days because "they need me and the company might fail if I leave".

It feels they can't even dive into and tease apart these choices and really evaluate them ("Is it fair for me to bring up this other job offer in this negotiation?"), and they also struggle to consider what the other side is capable of (eg negotiating with multiple candidates at the same time).

Unfortunately it's not until these people get bitten a few times that they start to develop a stronger sense of being able to navigate these choice problems.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#88
post #81

> Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed? I think these studies are all significantly flawed because successful people with dark personality traits learn to cover up their dark traits. As a result, the cohort of people with "dark traits" in these observational studies will inevitably be skewed towards those who are less successful/intelligent/adaptable. Possessing "dark traits" basically means…

I agree with you. Smart people with dark traits become really good at painting their objectives in moral, altruistic terms. They tend to limit the display of their "dark traits" through actions to infrequent events where they stand to gain significantly and will suffer the least blowback.

This is because they understand that most people build trust by observing small actions. So the smart+dark personality combos follow the script until they can make a move where it really counts. And when they do pounce, they're good at subsequently coloring what they did through a kinder lens.

These people would be nearly impossible to pick out in a survey, because they make it their business to be impossible to pick out.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#89
post #22

The question I'd rather ask: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed in systems set up by people with dark personality traits? Traits only have meaning in an environment, a context. It's not clear how much we can control the traits. But we definitely can control the environment. The modern corporation only goes back to the age of railroads. Many of our governmental systems don't go back much fa…

I think an even better, albeit harder, question would be "how can we set up systems such that even when they're gamed they result in positive outcomes?". Any system with incentives can be gamed. Those that learn to game systems as a means to survival are always going to be adept at manipulating those systems.

I've always thought the answer to that question (which unfortunately is a very hard one) is the ideal form of government. Figure out what balance between personal and societal "positive outcomes" we can stomach and then set up rules that lead us there.

I think some of the oldest and most successful bits of governance are built on this principle, but there's a lot of laws out there that seem to just attempt to dictate a desired outcome without considering how the real world will only nominally comply.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#90
post #81

> Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed? I think these studies are all significantly flawed because successful people with dark personality traits learn to cover up their dark traits. As a result, the cohort of people with "dark traits" in these observational studies will inevitably be skewed towards those who are less successful/intelligent/adaptable. Possessing "dark traits" basically means…

What you're describing isn't a flaw in the research, though perhaps it is a gap. You can answer the question "Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?" in the negative even if "successful people with dark personality traits learn to cover up their dark traits".

Sure, in some sense the ultimate "dark" person has more options and is strictly better off (or at least not worse off) for that reason. But concomitant with being dark may be a range of other attributes which lead to unhappiness, discontentment, or lack of success.

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