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Expanding Fuchsia's open source model

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Re: Expanding Fuchsia's open source model

#81

Post by actuator »

cute_boi wrote: post #75

Google and Opensource a joke of century. Chrome -> Make chromium opensource but add spyware that phones home on every second and with new manifest v3 make sure extensions like ublock origin don't work Andriod -> Make tip of iceberg opensource but force every vendor to use Service and lock down whole ecosystem around it. And make sure there is no way to block ads on youtube for andriod. Fuchsia -> Initial Stage make p…

> Make chromium opensource but add spyware that phones home on every second

Chromium homes every second? That seems interesting. It has been a long time since I last used Chromium. Does it also come with Google auth now?

> Make tip of iceberg opensource but force every vendor to use Service and lock down whole ecosystem around it.

If they add Google specific services into core Android is it not worse? Companies like Amazon and a lot of Chinese companies seem to be fine with using just the core Android.

Re: Expanding Fuchsia's open source model

#82

Post by zepto »

actuator wrote: post #79
jmnicolas wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah the base open sources Android is barely usable. Even simple things like getting a local notification at the right time are not a given. If they do the same with Fuschia, they'd better make it closed sources then.

Sorry, not familiar with Android core. For your example, how would it work without proprietary technologies? AFAIK, Android uses GCM for notifications. Adding integrations for it don't seem to make much sense in core open source Android as that will make you tied to Google's ecosystem.

An open platform would have a framework that supports multiple back ends.

Re: Expanding Fuchsia's open source model

#83

Post by [deleted] »

wojciii wrote: post #78
methodsignature wrote: post #45

So maybe open source, [mostly] closed ecosystem? Add a bunch of Spyware from Google and get every app maker to add a dependency to Google services and they are golden for the collection of data on all your "smart" things Sorry/not sorry for the cynicism; I feel it is warranted given what "open source" means on Android. Google talking like they have noble open source ambitions means nothing. They have a lot of amends…

Thank you for writing this so that I don't have to. :) This would probably be a good time to mention https://github.com/zephyrproject-rtos/zephyr .

[deleted]

Re: Expanding Fuchsia's open source model

#85

Post by unnouinceput »

jtsiskin wrote: post #38
torben-friis wrote: post #3

I'm still not clear on what fuchsia is trying to be - or more specifically, why is Google developing it. What is the end goal here, from a business perspective?

It’s already running on some of their embedded devices, such as google home. A capability based OS with a micro kernel sounds great to me. Things like the networking stack can run in user space, and be written in memory safe languages like Rust. An OS that “can’t” get viruses or be hacked sounds pretty desirable. Cynically it makes things like “jail breaking” a google home much more difficult.

The second any "can't get viruses" OS will grant a legit app possibility to modify files, is the same second that OS can get viruses as well.

Re: Expanding Fuchsia's open source model

#86

Post by bestorworse »

wmf wrote: post #62
bestorworse wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it as better way of developing a product. Or actually, a foundational system , if Fuchsia really ends up becoming something like that. You see, lots of things that today are fundamental were just "developed organically", and that is OK because people never tought that it would end up being what it is. Besides, a greater part of the cruft we have today is rooted in the development model companies adopt that is "…

Sure, but if Fuchsia is 100% grunt work and there's nothing cool to do in the project it's not going to attract outside contributors.

That is true.

I think this is the greater challenge now for Google. A system being very well designed and implemented only attracts enthusiasts and people like that with free time. Even the 'better security' aspect doesn't convince the majority of developers. For general usage in IoT and primarily in smartphone/tablet devices, Google would have to:

1. Port ART together with all of Android's public facing APIs to Fuchsia. Evidence says they are doing it, at least for Android ART. As people say, "there's no way without Android app compatibility"...

2. Convince OEMs to switch to Fuchsia platform instead of Linux. That I believe is under way with project Treble, or at least has a path for a possible solution. And Fuchsia's architecture solving Linux big pain points would be a strong argument in convincing OEMs to switch. Woundn't be easy though as drivers would have to be (re)developed or some bridge would have to be built.

With above done, developers would have a push to develop targeting Fuchsia natively. Then Fuchsia's better system architecture together with security advantages would be more strongly perceived by end developers.

If Google managed to develop some new fancy end product on top of Fuchsia that got traction, then that process would be a lot easier for them...

Re: Expanding Fuchsia's open source model

#88

Post by actuator »

zepto wrote: post #82
actuator wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, not familiar with Android core. For your example, how would it work without proprietary technologies? AFAIK, Android uses GCM for notifications. Adding integrations for it don't seem to make much sense in core open source Android as that will make you tied to Google's ecosystem.

An open platform would have a framework that supports multiple back ends.

This would be definitely nice to have but why does core Android itself need to have support for every feature?

We can have open source OSs on top of Android that build with a specific service set. Sort of how Ubuntu builds over Debian.

Re: Expanding Fuchsia's open source model

#89

Post by saghm »

trasz wrote: post #31
brandmeyer wrote: post #10

Looks like you still cannot contribute without granting copyright ownership to Google. In turn, GOOG licenses it out under a BSD (or BSD-like) license. This is a big difference relative to Linux, and its part of why Linux works so well as a collaboration between competitors. The GPL's copyleft acts as a joint development agreement between equals. IMO, Fuchsia's model only works well for integration partners that are…

With BSD-style licenses there's still a strong incentive to share code. That's why permissively-licensed projects, from Node, to PostgreSQL, to FreeBSD, work. With GPL-style licenses, there's an incentive to avoid putting effort into development, and instead undercut other parties who did invest, and then had to share their code.

> That's why permissively-licensed projects, from Node, to PostgreSQL, to FreeBSD, work.

Sure, but there are plenty of copyleft-licensed projects that also work? This isn't a very convincing argument.

Re: Expanding Fuchsia's open source model

#90

Post by hortense »

Anyone else bothered by the black banner saying "Google is committed to advancing racial equity for Black communities" in technical documentation (https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/contribute/roadmap) ?

This is simply an advertisement for Google, and just like any other advertisement it has nothing to do in technical documentation, especially in a project where they want other companies to contribute.

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