Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#51

Post by core-questions » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #7

>Overall, individuals with dark traits engage in more counterproductive work behaviour, such as theft and abusive supervision. Perhaps unsurprisingly, they don’t end up with higher average incomes than their peers with light personalities. >The key factor here seems to be empathy: the capacity to resonate with – and understand the perspective of – the emotional experiences of others. Individuals with light personalit…

>ts been shown pretty consistently that higher agreeableness (more empathy) has a negative effect on salary, primarily for women

It's not just salary - it's every single negotiation you have in your life. Negotiation is the art of backing down carefully, not all at once, not being a pushover, not going-along-to-get-along. If you're an agreeable person, then you by definition don't push for your way instead of someone else's; and when you're in a financial negotiation, this is basically the worst trait you can possibly have, because your adversary probably does this more often and was specifically hired for being someone that is good at pushing for their way. The company wants to hire you for less money; the car salesperson wants to sell you the car for a higher price; and so forth.

There is no way of fixing this problem "systemically" across the board, because game-theoretically it will rarely be to anyone's advantage to take the first step in this direction.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#52

Post by adnzzzzZ » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #47

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #7

>Overall, individuals with dark traits engage in more counterproductive work behaviour, such as theft and abusive supervision. Perhaps unsurprisingly, they don’t end up with higher average incomes than their peers with light personalities. >The key factor here seems to be empathy: the capacity to resonate with – and understand the perspective of – the emotional experiences of others. Individuals with light personalit…

>> In our new research, we found that this seems to be what leads to a more satisfying life. Similarly, being prosocial – acting kindly, cooperatively and with compassion toward others – is also significantly linked with higher wellbeing. > Maybe the comparison between "dark traits" and "light personalities" yields this, but its been shown pretty consistently that higher agreeableness (more empathy) has a negative ef…

>Perhaps unsurprisingly, they don’t end up with higher average incomes than their peers with light personalities.

This is the relevant quote. The article explicitly says "light personalities" have no penalty compared to "dark traits". This may be true in their comparison, but overall higher agreeableness is related to lower salary.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#53

Post by ardy42 » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

bonoboTP wrote: post #31

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #7

>Overall, individuals with dark traits engage in more counterproductive work behaviour, such as theft and abusive supervision. Perhaps unsurprisingly, they don’t end up with higher average incomes than their peers with light personalities. >The key factor here seems to be empathy: the capacity to resonate with – and understand the perspective of – the emotional experiences of others. Individuals with light personalit…

Also, narcissistsic sociopaths can have a high capacity for empathy in the sense of knowing what others feel and think while also ruthlessly manipulating, being two-faced based on who is present and the gaslighting others when these obvious differences are brought up (differences like switching the entire tone of voice and mannerisms at the flip of a switch, as if it was new person, just to suck up to or put down peo…

> Also, narcissistsic sociopaths can have a high capacity for empathy in the sense of knowing what others feel and think while also ruthlessly manipulating

I initially thought this wasn't considered empathy, but TIL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Classification:

> Empathy is generally divided into two major components: ...

> Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy: the capacity to respond with an appropriate emotion to another's mental states.... sympathy and compassion for others in response to their suffering.... self-centered feelings of discomfort and anxiety in response to another's suffering....

> Cognitive empathy: the capacity to understand another's perspective or mental state....

> Affective and cognitive empathy are also independent from one another; someone who strongly empathizes emotionally is not necessarily good in understanding another's perspective.

However, I think when most people use the term "empathy" they're almost exclusively referring to affective empathy.

I like Wikipedia's translation of the German term for empathy, Einfühlung, as "feeling into," which captures the meaning pretty well for me.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#54

Post by bonoboTP » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

mercurialshark wrote: post #49

bonoboTP wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, narcissistsic sociopaths can have a high capacity for empathy in the sense of knowing what others feel and think while also ruthlessly manipulating, being two-faced based on who is present and the gaslighting others when these obvious differences are brought up (differences like switching the entire tone of voice and mannerisms at the flip of a switch, as if it was new person, just to suck up to or put down peo…

> a nightmare because they appear so charming outward to powerful people in decision making positions, while being cruel and sadistic to others I wouldn't conflate emotional intelligence - i.e. the ability to modulate behavior based on person specific interactions - with necessarily possessing negative, vindictive, malign or cruel personality traits. That's definitely a stereotype. It is entirely possible to be charm…

I didn't imply that every charming person is suspicious for being cruel.

Just that when you are on the receiving end, it can be very frustrating to try and tell others about it. This is in fact one mechanism that keeps victims of sexual or other harassment and bullying silent. And I don't mean small misunderstandings and microagressions. There are people who will literally tell you "you can try telling about this to XY, they will never believe you." being absolutely conscious and intentional about the whole thing. The existence of such people is really hard to believe for many. There are truly evil people out there who know they are evil and probably cannot even help it very much.

They also often try to turn things around and blame you for the things that they do. We call it gaslighting. And in a meta way, they will even preemptively say you are gaslighting them! And it devolves into a "no u" kind of debate and some victims even end up believing it! It can literally make you go crazy!

Search YouTube for narcissist or psychopath, sociopath recordings. There are secret video and audio recordings of what these people will do to their subordinates, eg their children or employees. It is absolutely mind bending and life changing to see how predictable and consistent they are.

Now, this is of course a pathological extreme. But there are milder versions of it too.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#55

Post by lazyjones » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 5:48 PM UTC

tartoran wrote: post #29

mam2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always found these kind of studies bullshit: the worse serial killers and pedophiles were sometimes described as "nice" and "charming" people. I don't think it's accurate to make a clear line between "real sociopathy" and "normal people" based on your behavior. Everyone has personal goals, interests, (whether good or bad) and try to have what he think is the the optimal behavior (wether good or bad). The real quest…

> I always found these kind of studies bullshit: the worse serial killers and pedophiles were sometimes described as "nice" and "charming" people. That is at first sight. Psychopaths have a surface level charm but spending enough time with them and the illusion shatters. A real agreable and nice person has that as a baseline, that’s a big facet of their personality.

> That is at first sight. Psychopaths have a surface level charm

If they participated in psychology studies, which category would they fall in?

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#56

Post by mercurialshark » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 5:49 PM UTC

bonoboTP wrote: post #54

mercurialshark wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a nightmare because they appear so charming outward to powerful people in decision making positions, while being cruel and sadistic to others I wouldn't conflate emotional intelligence - i.e. the ability to modulate behavior based on person specific interactions - with necessarily possessing negative, vindictive, malign or cruel personality traits. That's definitely a stereotype. It is entirely possible to be charm…

I didn't imply that every charming person is suspicious for being cruel. Just that when you are on the receiving end, it can be very frustrating to try and tell others about it. This is in fact one mechanism that keeps victims of sexual or other harassment and bullying silent. And I don't mean small misunderstandings and microagressions. There are people who will literally tell you "you can try telling about this to…

All good points, thanks. Yes, being on the receiving end - especially when you rely on the other person's best intentions - can be traumatizing.

And yes, that's a particularly terrible form of manipulation.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#57

Post by kjlkjoxcvxch » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

pizza234 wrote: post #6

The test itself is very well done - they try to get people to respond precisely, but checking attention, and asking multiple times questions about the same concept. However, the article has a very fundamental flaw: > Unfortunately, most people with extreme levels of dark personality traits don’t want to change who they are. Despite not being particularly happy with their lives The test doesn't deal with "happiness" a…

Using a throwaway for obvious reasons.

I've been diagnosed as having narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) by several doctors so maybe I can shed some light on this.

NPD is the inability to generate and/or experience internal validation. It is the lack of internal voice saying "good job". NPD is not self-aggrandizement although that is a common coping mechanism used to deal with the underlying disorder. I don't think I'm some sort of minor deity, but I'm also told by my doctors that I'm considerably more introspective than the typical narcissist (the irony of my docs being a source of praise is not lost on me).

Because I do not have an internal source of validation I seek out validation and praise from others to fill the void. Psychiatrists call these sources of validation "narcissistic supply". That supply is a finite resource, eventually I either exhaust or build up a tolerance to the individual / group supplying the validation which causes me to seek out new sources. Some people have compared it to an addict trying to find their fix, a metaphor I find distasteful since it does people suffering from addiction a disservice.

In this way I don't think I can be happy because I cannot remain satisfied. Sometimes I feel good, but I understand that no matter what I do, success I achieve, or people I help it will never be enough. I have a hard time staying still because I know that whatever source of supply I'm currently tapping will eventually run dry. It's a rather restless experience.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#58

Post by bonoboTP » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 5:52 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #53

bonoboTP wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, narcissistsic sociopaths can have a high capacity for empathy in the sense of knowing what others feel and think while also ruthlessly manipulating, being two-faced based on who is present and the gaslighting others when these obvious differences are brought up (differences like switching the entire tone of voice and mannerisms at the flip of a switch, as if it was new person, just to suck up to or put down peo…

> Also, narcissistsic sociopaths can have a high capacity for empathy in the sense of knowing what others feel and think while also ruthlessly manipulating I initially thought this wasn't considered empathy, but TIL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Classification : > Empathy is generally divided into two major components: ... > Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy: the capacity to respond with an ap…

On the other hand, someone on the autism spectrum may be able to emotionally empathize if they find it clear what the other person feels, but may not be able to cognitively intuit complicated webs of unspoken social relations and resulting feelings of many layers of "I expected him/her to know that I think he ...."

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#59

Post by incrudible » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 5:52 PM UTC

alexpetralia wrote: post #12

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #7

>Overall, individuals with dark traits engage in more counterproductive work behaviour, such as theft and abusive supervision. Perhaps unsurprisingly, they don’t end up with higher average incomes than their peers with light personalities. >The key factor here seems to be empathy: the capacity to resonate with – and understand the perspective of – the emotional experiences of others. Individuals with light personalit…

Does high agreeableness necessarily translate into more empathy, or vice versa? I define empathy as "knowing your customer" (whoever it may be). You can be very attuned to this whether you are agreeable or disagreeable, no? (Perhaps this is not a widely accepted definition of empathy, and that definition instead somehow indicates "being nice"? I don't think being nice/agreeable necessarily helps you know who you're s…

Empathy is feeling what others feel. In other words, if I hurt you, I not only understand that you are hurt, I would be hurt myself.

Psychopaths are incapable of empathy, but it would make sense if lack of empathy were advantageous from an evolutionary perspective.

Re: Are people with dark personality traits more likely to succeed?

#60

Post by zozbot234 » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

bonoboTP wrote: post #31

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #7

>Overall, individuals with dark traits engage in more counterproductive work behaviour, such as theft and abusive supervision. Perhaps unsurprisingly, they don’t end up with higher average incomes than their peers with light personalities. >The key factor here seems to be empathy: the capacity to resonate with – and understand the perspective of – the emotional experiences of others. Individuals with light personalit…

Also, narcissistsic sociopaths can have a high capacity for empathy in the sense of knowing what others feel and think while also ruthlessly manipulating, being two-faced based on who is present and the gaslighting others when these obvious differences are brought up (differences like switching the entire tone of voice and mannerisms at the flip of a switch, as if it was new person, just to suck up to or put down peo…

I think this is better described as superficial charm than any meaningful understanding of other's goals and feelings. It's easy to be outwardly charming when you have no real intention to follow up on whatever you're promising to others.