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How to Escape a Sinking Ship

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Re: How to Escape a Sinking Ship

#101

Post by hef19898 »

JimTheMan wrote: post #36
paleotrope wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Break the rules. Officials may try to deter you from using passages, ladders or stairwells. Ignore them. If you need to kick open a door or pick a lock, do it." I would say that in general, when a ship is in danger of sinking, hatches are closed and dogged off for a reason, usually to control flooding, so this is a really bad advice. On the other hand, when a hatch is secured, you usually can't open it from one side…

I remember being in Anson, when it was reported a Korean Ferry going to Jeju hit a rock and started taking on water. The captain reported on the radio," everyone stay put." and for the most part they did, even while the captain was escaping the ship. 299 people drowned that day, many of them the local school in Anson. I remember walking past the highschool that very night and seeing the crowd of the bereaved. If more…

This is such a disaster on so many levels. I would say it is the exception that proofs the rule. Counter would be that cruise ship that sank near Italy where most people were only 32 out of 3,250 people died.

And everyone should listen to the Captain, be it a plane or a ship. Especially in emergency situations.

Re: How to Escape a Sinking Ship

#102

Post by hef19898 »

bsanr2 wrote: post #26
secabeen wrote: post #13

Somewhat tongue in cheek, but still some good advice here: -- Know your surroundings, specifically where your exits are. The nearest exit may be behind you. -- Break the rules. Officials may try to deter you from using passages, ladders or stairwells. Ignore them. If you need to kick open a door or pick a lock, do it. -- Be where the well-connected people are, and look/act the part. Try to blend into the tribe, be a…

When Titanic aired on broadcast TV earlier this year, I was struck by the horror of the situation in a way I hadn't been when it first came out (my being 7-years-old at the time might have something to do with that, of course). I came to similar conclusions at the time: situational awareness (especially listening to what the people around you are saying and reading between the lines), willingness to break rules, will…

I wouldn't draw much conclusions from a true disaster over 100 years ago (in which case the evacuation itself wasn't as bad, given the total lack of safety procedures and the timing) and a case in which nobody believed the buildings would go down. In both cases, rules have been revised, e.g. the closed doors between classes on the Titanic are not a thing anymore.

Re: How to Escape a Sinking Ship

#103

Post by dmitriid »

tdeck wrote: post #79
smogcutter wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Break the rules. Officials may try to deter you from using passages, ladders or stairwells. Ignore them. If you need to kick open a door or pick a lock, do it. I learned this lesson on 9/11, as a high school student in lower Manhattan. We were told to sit in our homerooms and wait, while smoke (and god knows what else) enveloped the building. Eventually we were shuffled out of the building and told to keep going nor…

As an extreme example I'm reminded of this south korean ferry disaster where 304 passengers died: > As Sewol began sinking, the ferry's intercom system started ordering the passengers to stay put, alleging that moving was dangerous. The announcements were made by a communication officer, Kang Hae-seong, who had not consulted the manual before the broadcast. The announcements began broadcasting by at least 8:52 a.m. a…

It's a well-known issue in some countries: authorities are never questioned even if the decisions are obviously wrong.

For Korea, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509#I...

Re: How to Escape a Sinking Ship

#104

Post by petkeviciuz »

For anyone interested in more modern days example, you can check up Kevin Escoffier and his miraculous escape (I think it was ±2 minutes between his boat splitting in a half and him entering rescue craft) during vendee globe race. Link for more info: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/dramatic-rescu...

Re: How to Escape a Sinking Ship

#105

Post by 3pt14159 »

s5300 wrote: post #33
Spooky23 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whats bad for the whole might be better for you. People in the WTC were told to chill out, no worries, all is well. Screw that — if something hits the fan, I will gtfo.

I was in the Ritz-Carlson in DTLA last year for Anime expo. Waiting on the third floor for a convention with atleast 200 people just in that one smaller area, all of the sudden, a live voice came over the intercom with instructions to immediately evacuate the building, all but essential staff. In my mind it seemed as serious as if there was an active shooter somewhere. I was literally the only person in the group to…

Very few people internalize the OODA loop. I've reacted fast in situations and it saved lives, but I wasn't born that way. I had trained for years as a kid in a program literally called Life Savers[0] which taught swimming in contexts where others are drowning, first aid including CPR, and how to react in situations like burning buildings and downed electrical lines. One of the first things they tell you is that untrained people react to chaos by freezing and that because most people are untrained this collective freeze is enforced by social pressure. So you need to point and yell in order to get people organized and moving. For example, when I was giving mouth-to-mouth to someone I pointed and yelled at one person to get me a medic and they just stared blankly back at me, so I pointed and yelled at the person standing next to them and he jumped into action. It takes focus and leadership, but it's vital during a crisis.

[0] https://lifesaverscanada.com/

Re: How to Escape a Sinking Ship

#106

Post by hrktb »

hef19898 wrote: post #100
smogcutter wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Break the rules. Officials may try to deter you from using passages, ladders or stairwells. Ignore them. If you need to kick open a door or pick a lock, do it. I learned this lesson on 9/11, as a high school student in lower Manhattan. We were told to sit in our homerooms and wait, while smoke (and god knows what else) enveloped the building. Eventually we were shuffled out of the building and told to keep going nor…

That's the tricky part. Official safety rules are there for a reason, that is because by the best knowledge they work. 9/11 was special because nobody expected the towers to go down. The Sewol was man-made disaster. In most other cases, following orders as a passenger and official safety rules will safe your life. It will also maximize the number of lives saved. And even if authorities don't necessarily know more tha…

My take on parent's comment that the people in charge had no more clue what they were doing than the rest of the group.

It's an issue solved by training on both parts (evacuation leaders and evacuating people), and also why fire drill need to be taken seriously, or at least be an occasion to thinking hard about the building we're in, the exits, and how it looks like when everyone is following that path.

Even in unforseen situations, that's where we all end up anyway.

Re: How to Escape a Sinking Ship

#107

Post by hef19898 »

vmh1928 wrote: post #52

Too bad the author didn't discuss how to make a raft from deck chairs. Always bring 50' of para cord and a compliant knife. Perhaps a discussion of what sort of non-obvious cutting instrument would be good to bring. Nail clippers? A plastic knife with a ceramic edge? Like one of these: https://www.osograndeknives.com/catalog/fixed-blade-non-dete...

As ships are now carrying more life boats, life rafts and vests than passengers it would be better to know where these things are. That being said, I prefer being on deck anyway. Not for safety, but for the view.

Re: How to Escape a Sinking Ship

#108

Post by s5300 »

3pt14159 wrote: post #105
s5300 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in the Ritz-Carlson in DTLA last year for Anime expo. Waiting on the third floor for a convention with atleast 200 people just in that one smaller area, all of the sudden, a live voice came over the intercom with instructions to immediately evacuate the building, all but essential staff. In my mind it seemed as serious as if there was an active shooter somewhere. I was literally the only person in the group to…

Very few people internalize the OODA loop. I've reacted fast in situations and it saved lives, but I wasn't born that way. I had trained for years as a kid in a program literally called Life Savers[0] which taught swimming in contexts where others are drowning, first aid including CPR, and how to react in situations like burning buildings and downed electrical lines. One of the first things they tell you is that untr…

Yeah, I grew up with a hobby that basically entailed... extreme hypervigilance, quick decision making, and leadership initiative. Seems to have ingrained itself deeply within me having participated in it somewhat religiously from 10-18. Sometimes I regret it a bit as it's made me pretty much always alert/hyperaware of my surroundings.

Re: How to Escape a Sinking Ship

#109

Post by gadders »

smogcutter wrote: post #65
secabeen wrote: post #13

Somewhat tongue in cheek, but still some good advice here: -- Know your surroundings, specifically where your exits are. The nearest exit may be behind you. -- Break the rules. Officials may try to deter you from using passages, ladders or stairwells. Ignore them. If you need to kick open a door or pick a lock, do it. -- Be where the well-connected people are, and look/act the part. Try to blend into the tribe, be a…

>Break the rules. Officials may try to deter you from using passages, ladders or stairwells. Ignore them. If you need to kick open a door or pick a lock, do it. I learned this lesson on 9/11, as a high school student in lower Manhattan. We were told to sit in our homerooms and wait, while smoke (and god knows what else) enveloped the building. Eventually we were shuffled out of the building and told to keep going nor…

There was also Grenfell Tower in the UK, where the fire brigade told everyone to stay in their flats (apartments) as the building caught fire around them: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/16/london-fire-chie...

Re: How to Escape a Sinking Ship

#110

Post by dclowd9901 »

zapdrive wrote: post #27
cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #10

Step 1. Don't be a man Step 2. Don't be poor. 97% of First Class women and 87% of female crew members survived the sinking of the Titanic. https://www.anesi.com/titanic.htm

Ooooh yes, the female privilege that feminists never talk about.

Survival isn’t a feminist issue. Children-first makes sense, but women first is buying into feminine frailty. I say that because, I also think a feminist would support “women and children first,” because survival means a hell of a lot more than a philosophical stance. At the end of the day, what you believe doesn’t matter if you’re dead. Frankly, I can hardly blame a person for taking advantage of a social norm that grants them survival.
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