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Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

thatgeoguy.ca

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Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#21

Post by ThatGeoGuy »

db579 wrote: post #16
ThatGeoGuy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here: I think this reply and the reply by AnthonyMouse in another sub-thread [1] nail it. I'd also add that just because you don't want to buy Chinese products != Buy USA made products. There are a vast number of other countries that would jump at the notion of becoming your supply chain, and don't necessarily have all the ethical grievances of supporting China. I actually think my main objection though had no…

Because you have to start somewhere and by paying $2k today for a few screws inserted in the USA you hopefully prove the demand for full manufacturing to be supplied in the USA. And hopefully not just in the USA, centralising the entire worlds manufacturing capacity in one region is not particularly anti-fragile.

The problem is scale though. The market today for the Librem 5 is... a handful of Linux nerds and privacy purists?

It seems fine as a statement piece if you're a big company willing to put your wallet on the line, it means a lot less if you're Purism and you need to stay focused in order to do it. And I will argue again: you could probably do this for vastly cheaper than $1999 even in the States. If anything it hurts this more, since people will look at this as an example and say, "Well, I'm not paying $2000 for something like that, guess USA manufacturing is dead since they can't produce good hardware at reasonable prices."

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#22

Post by dec0dedab0de »

freeopinion wrote: post #20
baybal2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are solutions to this. Obvious solutions. But it would imply paying more for stuff. Well, even if you do, you are up to myriad of other issues. The progressing general business unfriendliness of the West will not go anywhere. If it does not go, the situation will not change even if you put 1000000% tariff on Chinese goods. I myself been working on setting up a small knock down kit assembly factory 6 years ago…

Trump just fought China with tariffs. That is not the answer and I don't think is one of the "obvious solutions" referenced. Let me put it this way... Should we allow a factory in Indiana to avoid environmental regulation if they just pay a 30% tariff? Is it ok to have a 5% mortality rate at a factory in Alabama if they pay a 60% tariff? Should U.S. companies be allowed to just pay fees to become exempt from FDA/EPA/…

I think this was howard dean's big talking point before they made him look crazy.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#23

Post by baybal2 »

flubert wrote: post #19
baybal2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are solutions to this. Obvious solutions. But it would imply paying more for stuff. Well, even if you do, you are up to myriad of other issues. The progressing general business unfriendliness of the West will not go anywhere. If it does not go, the situation will not change even if you put 1000000% tariff on Chinese goods. I myself been working on setting up a small knock down kit assembly factory 6 years ago…

Was it a regulator paperwork hurdle? Regulations themselves? High cost of labor? No skilled labor available? High cost of warehouse/manufacturing floor space? All-of-the-above?

All of the above, times 10.

The Ease of Doing Business index is a complete BS.

Western countries in their majority should not be far away from countries they scorn as "third world" for how hard it is to run a business.

If you calculate costs purely on paper, running a factory in South China is already more expensive than in USA. It was so for quite some time.

You do not see Chinese factory moving to US in droves, despite some early optimism.

Chinese entrepreneurs saw for themselves that behind attractive land, utility, services, and some times labour costs, hides an impassible bog.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#24

Post by db579 »

ThatGeoGuy wrote: post #21
db579 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you have to start somewhere and by paying $2k today for a few screws inserted in the USA you hopefully prove the demand for full manufacturing to be supplied in the USA. And hopefully not just in the USA, centralising the entire worlds manufacturing capacity in one region is not particularly anti-fragile.

The problem is scale though. The market today for the Librem 5 is... a handful of Linux nerds and privacy purists? It seems fine as a statement piece if you're a big company willing to put your wallet on the line, it means a lot less if you're Purism and you need to stay focused in order to do it. And I will argue again: you could probably do this for vastly cheaper than $1999 even in the States. If anything it hurts…

It's only ~2.5x the cost of the Made in China version. I'm intrigued that you think it could be done for less?

Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right?

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#25

Post by Const-me »

varispeed wrote: post #15
fsflover wrote: post #2

About the USA-made version of Librem 5: > it’s kind of appalling that literally anyone would pay this much. It’s kind of appalling that Purism would charge this much. I can imagine a scheme where the parts are shipped from China, and verified and assembled by a part-time college student in the States and they’d likely still be able to price it cheaper than $1999.00. There are definitely valid reasons not to buy Chine…

Is there an open source phone where you can get the board done at one of the pcb huts, order parts from Mouser, 3D print the case and put everything together?

One gonna need at least a few grands worth of strange equipment normally used by people who repair electronics (the strange equipment used by manufacturers costs millions). Having prior experience with these tools is recommended.

Another obstacle is 3d printed case, phones need both high precision and high strength, AFAIK many 3d printers/materials lack at least one of these properties.

Still it looks doable, and apparently some people actually did similar stuff.

http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~mellis/cellphone/index.html

https://diy3dprinting.blogspot.com/2013/09/diy-mobile-phone-...

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#26

Post by baybal2 »

db579 wrote: post #24
ThatGeoGuy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is scale though. The market today for the Librem 5 is... a handful of Linux nerds and privacy purists? It seems fine as a statement piece if you're a big company willing to put your wallet on the line, it means a lot less if you're Purism and you need to stay focused in order to do it. And I will argue again: you could probably do this for vastly cheaper than $1999 even in the States. If anything it hurts…

It's only ~2.5x the cost of the Made in China version. I'm intrigued that you think it could be done for less? Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right?

> Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right?

An experienced factory worker (5-7+ years) with professional training, certifications, and clean track record costs at least 15k CNY a month in salary, and 6-10k more in pension/insurance/other social payments.

Factory workers in US get how much now?

> An early career Factory Worker with 1-4 years of experience earns an average total compensation of $13.28 based on 228 salaries. A mid-career Factory Worker with 5-9 years of experience earns an average total compensation of $14.17 based on 91 salaries.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#27

Post by O1111OOO »

> For the vast majority of people, the Librem 5 and Pinephone are probably not worth even considering. The GNU userspace and associated “mobile” paradigms within it are very much not ready for daily use.

> Linux phones are definitely not yet ready to be daily drivers

Despite the author making this point twice and some of the negativity regarding Purism's pricing - I still feel very good about the state of Linux phones and the incredible work these two entities are doing. We can't lose sight of this.

It wasn't too long ago that the mere mention of a Linux phone was pure fantasy. We now have two companies (and two passionate communities) that are helping move Open Source Linux forward. I'm still very excited about how things are developing and the trickle down effect it will have as we move forward.

> One of the neat things about the Pinephone is the ability to boot and use a variety of Linux distributions on the hardware itself. It’s as easy as loading the distro onto an SD card, and then booting the phone. You don’t even have to flash anything to the internal eMMC in order to run it!

This is such a killer feature for me - while also providing a modern-ish platform for the various distributions and app developers to test their wares. It's probably the biggest single most important thing about the PinePhone right now.

No more unsuccessful rooting, flashing and possibly bricking. No more nagging feeling that you are merely renting a device and are constantly at the whim of a corporate overlord (which never ends well).

I think, like the author, I'm a bit more excited about the flexibility of the PinePhone but acknowledge the importance of the work Purism is doing to try and bring a First Tier Linux phone to market. We all benefit from this.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#28

Post by girvo »

O1111OOO wrote: post #27

> For the vast majority of people, the Librem 5 and Pinephone are probably not worth even considering. The GNU userspace and associated “mobile” paradigms within it are very much not ready for daily use. > Linux phones are definitely not yet ready to be daily drivers Despite the author making this point twice and some of the negativity regarding Purism's pricing - I still feel very good about the state of Linux phone…

My Nokia N9 proved to me that a Linux-based phone without having to be an entirely different world like Android is possible — and I’m stoked to see Librem and the PinePhone take this even further!

We’ve come a long way since the OpenMoko :)

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#29

Post by blendergeek »

I should point out that very little of this article compares the hardware of these two devices. This article has two main comparisons. One of these is Pine64 vs Purism and the others Phosh vs LoMiri. For those who haven't read the article but want to quickly skim to the sections with actual comparison between the Librem 5 and the Pinephone, here are the relevant headers:

- Kill Switches

- Charging the battery

- Temperature

- Phone shape

The rest of the article is not about Librem 5 vs Pinephone. While the sections on the apps could have compared the two phones, instead they compare two operating systems. I would have loved a discussion of the performance differences between the two phones or the screen brightness or the speakers. However, most of this article is largely irrelevant to the phones.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#30

Post by sudosysgen »

baybal2 wrote: post #26
db579 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only ~2.5x the cost of the Made in China version. I'm intrigued that you think it could be done for less? Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right?

> Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right? An experienced factory worker (5-7+ years) with professional training, certifications, and clean track record costs at least 15k CNY a month in salary, and 6-10k more in pension/insurance/other social payments. Factory workers in US get how much now? > An early career Factor…

Wow. I'm really surprised it got anywhere near that close.
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