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Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

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Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#701

Post by giantrobot »

foolfoolz wrote: post #372
sjg007 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it, software is eating the world, there aren't enough engineers and we see productivity gains like the cloud where you can basically run a global scale business with just a handful of people. We will probably see more of those companies than less.

when the work is remote we don’t need remote-california to save 10% on wages. we will go to remote-ukraine or estonia and hire twice as many engineers

As talented as the Ukrainian or Estonian engineers might be you're unlikely to see any real savings over time. Just scheduling things a full work day apart in time zones is really difficult. Effectively communicating is even more difficult. Then there's stupid little shit like one machine in a remote office set to a different locale than the main office that breaks things in stupid ways.

Engineering throughput definitely doesn't scale linearly with the size of the engineering team. Good on you for never having managed to have heard of Fred Brooks though.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#702

Post by chao- »

ghaff wrote: post #637
nus07 wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on almost all of your points with a few caveats. - Cars : The Bay Area is very walkable but that’s mainly SF. The tech burbs of Palo Alto , Menlo Park are not super walkable and you are relying on the BART and other public transport . But Covid has destroyed public transport and cuts in funding threaten them further. LGBT : This is not really the 80s and 90s . Most big cities from DC, Atlanta, Austin ,Chicago…

And SF wrt cars only to some degree. I know a couple who decamped to SF and sold their cars when their kids got older. They do indeed live without owning cars. They also use Ubers, ZipCars, and regular rental all the time. I think a lot depends on what you're used to. I think a lot of folks accept the limited mobility they knew through school when they graduate. It becomes less acceptable as they get older. Many exce…

You can make a lot of things work in a lot of places. I have lived in both Dallas and Houston without a car, for example (but also Berlin, Santiago, Tokyo, so I have comparison points). If you don't have kids, and have the freedom to plan a bit around where you live and work, you won't really feel like you're missing anything. I would take a trip via Lyft twice a month to some venue that's further away than the bike/rail/bus combo could get me, but that's about all.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#703

Post by legerdemain »

mattcaldwell wrote: post #673
nus07 wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on almost all of your points with a few caveats. - Cars : The Bay Area is very walkable but that’s mainly SF. The tech burbs of Palo Alto , Menlo Park are not super walkable and you are relying on the BART and other public transport . But Covid has destroyed public transport and cuts in funding threaten them further. LGBT : This is not really the 80s and 90s . Most big cities from DC, Atlanta, Austin ,Chicago…

Even smaller towns, like Asheville (where I am now), have a huge LGBTQIA+ presence. I moved from DC, which was pretty gay, and I feel like it's even more super gay here.

Presence, sure. What about legal protections around seemingly trivial daily things like bathroom use? Family planning services focusing on the needs of LGBT families? Doctors who have experience with LGBT patients, whom these patients can trust and talk to candidly? Churches that welcome LGBT members without pressuring them to change fundamental aspects of their lives? Mental health specialists that cater to LGBT needs? People who are visibly out (or trans) in the workplace and talk about their loved ones without discomfort? Support for children and adolescents with diverse identities?

There's a world of difference between "yeah, we have gay people" and being a place where LGBT people can build happy, stable lives.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#704

Post by [deleted] »

rpearl wrote: post #555

Nobody really brings up that the bay area is one of few places in the US where you can live without a car. Really, even compared to other "walkable" cities beyond a select few, similarly expensive places. Nobody really brings up that the bay area has better LGBT and other minority protections than anywhere in the US, either. Every time someone mentions cheap midwest cities I have to pull up https://crossingenres.com/…

[deleted]

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#705

Post by labcomputer »

xienze wrote: post #225
pvarangot wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think SVs appeal is that you can leave in a quiet suburb close to a lot of easily accessible nature, while still having Amazon 2-day shipping, ridesharing, Uber Eats, and luxury retail. There's not many places in the US like this. Europe has a lot but there's not much tech jobs in them. You are also close to SF if you like the madness of the city every once in a while. Other suburby places with nature easily access…

> I think SVs appeal is that you can leave in a quiet suburb close to a lot of easily accessible nature, while still having Amazon 2-day shipping, ridesharing, Uber Eats, and luxury retail. Maybe there’s something you’re not explaining here but there’s plenty of places all over the country that fit this bill. Austin, Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Denver, etc. And Amazon 2 day delivery is available all over the place..…

This is pre-Covid:

> easily accessible nature

From my office in Palo Alto, I can ride my bicycle up Sand Hill Road, past horse farms, and then up a secluded 2000 ft (~600 meters) mountain with virtually no traffic and return during my lunch break. Or I can take a long lunch and ride out to the coast, through rolling farmlands. And I can do that virtually any day of the year, thanks to the local climate.

Most of the peninsula (which is, arguably, not SV proper) is like this, with tons of hiking within walking distance of where you live or work. The reason is that almost everything west of I-280 is undeveloped. As you ride or drive around that area, it's very easy to find a view where the only sign of humans is the road you're traveling on.

If I want to go skiing, I can leave work an hour early and drive up to Tahoe for the weekend. Or I could drive down to Santa Cruz for the day and go surfing.

Not quite "nature", but many people like to drive up to Napa for a day-trip to visit world-class wineries.

> luxury retail

Then, after work, I can walk over to my choice of Michelin starred restaurants (and I will pass multiple art galleries and branches of private banks). Granted, none of the restaurants in Palo Alto have more than one Michelin star (how gauche!).

If conspicuous consumption is your thing, San Mateo, Palo Alto, and Santa Clara each have high-end malls with practically every luxury brand you can imagine. Want to buy Ferrari or a McLaren? There's a dealer for each one within 10 miles of Mountain View.

> plenty of places all over the country that fit this bill

Many places have some of what SV offers. Very very few have everything, and I would argue that none of the cities you listed fit the bill.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#706

Post by ericmay »

babesh wrote: post #676
ericmay wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, Gabe. And I don't think it's SV -> Rural America exclusively. Many of these jobs will filter back into medium to large sized metros across the country. Places like Columbus, Indianapolis, St Louis, Atlanta, Nashville, etc. . There are scores of talented developers in these areas that would be open to remote work, but not relocation to the major metro areas.

Is this what is actually happening? We should look at the statistics as to where people move to. From what I can tell, people are actually mostly moving to other tech hubs (but lower priced) and to high end vacation areas. Think Austin, Denver, Park City Utah, Lake Tahoe, etc... The underlying dynamics are still at play (even tech but to a lesser extent).

Oh no doubt these areas will see an uptick in jobs... but they won’t be the only ones.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#707

Post by shadowofneptune »

rpearl wrote: post #555

Nobody really brings up that the bay area is one of few places in the US where you can live without a car. Really, even compared to other "walkable" cities beyond a select few, similarly expensive places. Nobody really brings up that the bay area has better LGBT and other minority protections than anywhere in the US, either. Every time someone mentions cheap midwest cities I have to pull up https://crossingenres.com/…

One thing that has changed is federal employment protections. That's huge, opens up a lot of the country to us. Federal housing protections could be possible as well from the precedent set.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#708

Post by echelon »

svachalek wrote: post #645
xienze wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think SVs appeal is that you can leave in a quiet suburb close to a lot of easily accessible nature, while still having Amazon 2-day shipping, ridesharing, Uber Eats, and luxury retail. Maybe there’s something you’re not explaining here but there’s plenty of places all over the country that fit this bill. Austin, Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Denver, etc. And Amazon 2 day delivery is available all over the place..…

In some places “easily accessible nature” means you can drive just a few hours. But pull up a map of Cupertino or Mountain View and zoom out just a little. There are dozens and dozens of parks in biking distance. Austin and Atlanta are not like this. Haven’t been to Charlotte or Raleigh in ages but, maybe. It’s a nice climate for sure. Denver is really pretty but it depends how you feel about real winter.

> Austin and Atlanta are not like this.

Have you been to Atlanta? It doesn't seem like you're familiar.

The Beltline [0,1], a paved multi-use trail converted from old railway, encircles the city's major neighborhoods and connects everything. It's one of the city's major features. Dozens of parks, including some of the largest -- Piedmont [2], Old Forth Ward, Grant Park, and the old Bellwood Quarry [3] where they filmed Walking Dead, It, etc. -- are all immediately accessible.

The Beltine is being connected to the Silver Comet Trail [4,5], which is a paved bike trail stretching all the way to Alabama (the nation's second longest). Light rail is also being added to the Beltline.

Outside the city you've got access to the Chattahoochee River for rafting. The Palisades [6] provide excellent river-adjacent hiking.

Stone Mountain [7], a giant granite mountain, is 30 minutes east of the city and provides excellent hiking and running.

Kennesaw Mountain [8] is 30 minutes northwest of the city and is great for hiking and dog walking.

Red Top Mountain is 40 minutes northwest, and you have a host of lower Appalachian mountains to the north.

Allatoona Lake [9] is 40 minutes northwest, where they filmed Ozark, and provides excellent boating. Lake Lanier is an hour away and is even bigger.

Atlanta isn't called "city in the forest" for nothing. We have so many trees, parks, and outdoor activities.

[0] https://beltline.org/

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeltLine

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piedmont_Park

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westside_Reservoir_Park

[4] https://www.silvercometga.com/

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Comet_Trail

[6] https://www.atlantatrails.com/hiking-trails/hiking-east-pali...

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain

[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw_Mountain

[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Allatoona

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#709

Post by tabtab »

SV has remained a key center of technology because it's easier to find elite and specialized talent there. Telework has yet to prove as collaboration-friendly as face-to-face and water-cooler talk. I'm not sure cost of living alone can counter that advantage. Any other city that "collects" enough techies to do the same will start to have cost of living problems of its own.

Plus, SV is used to "foreigners" and oddballs. Many other cities are not. As soon as you leave downtown, tradition-based evangelical influences take over. Rural areas are going to be that way no matter where you are in the US, but the intensity is generally more gradual in CA.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#710

Post by colechristensen »

bigyikes wrote: post #13

As it happens, tomorrow I’m putting in my 30-day notice to terminate my lease and leave the Bay. (And I’m paying 2 additional months rent in fees to do so) Not being tied to the office fundamentally changes the calculus of choosing where to live. There just aren’t good reasons to live here anymore for so many of us. Even if you enjoy the area, chances are you can get a better deal by moving just a bit further away. A…

I am likewise on my way out the door, not quite to the giving notice stage but not far either.
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