Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#611

Post by rayiner » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

rpearl wrote: post #555

Nobody really brings up that the bay area is one of few places in the US where you can live without a car. Really, even compared to other "walkable" cities beyond a select few, similarly expensive places. Nobody really brings up that the bay area has better LGBT and other minority protections than anywhere in the US, either. Every time someone mentions cheap midwest cities I have to pull up https://crossingenres.com/…

> Every time someone mentions cheap midwest cities I have to pull up https://crossingenres.com/out-in-the-united-states-where-can... and see if anything's changed since I last checked.

This analysis is shallow and has a thumb on the scale in favor of California. The author says of same-sex marriage: “There is much talk at the federal level by the presumed GOP candidate of creating legislation that would remove this right federally. I will not relocate to a state where my marriage could not be recognized.” Even if that was possible, why doesn’t that cross California off the list? Californians went to the trouble of overturning a state Supreme Court ruling to make same-sex marriage illegal, in 2008. It was illegal right up until Obergefell wiped out all such laws in 2015.

Folks in California might be surprised about what the rest of the country is really like. For example, same-sex marriage was legalized by a decision of the Iowa Supreme Court in 2009. Unlike California, there was no public support to overturn the ruling by constitutional amendment. Iowa has had joint adoption by same-sex couples since 2008. The state has outlawed discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity since 2007. (California enacted a state-wide protection against such discrimination in public accommodation in 2005.)

I’ll also observe that categorically rejecting states that have “religious freedom” laws, without digging into the specifics of the laws, would exclude most of the EU as well. Most countries have various exemptions to LGBT discrimination laws for e.g. religious organizations and their affiliates.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#612

Post by chaseadam17 » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

rpearl wrote: post #555

Nobody really brings up that the bay area is one of few places in the US where you can live without a car. Really, even compared to other "walkable" cities beyond a select few, similarly expensive places. Nobody really brings up that the bay area has better LGBT and other minority protections than anywhere in the US, either. Every time someone mentions cheap midwest cities I have to pull up https://crossingenres.com/…

Completely agree. I’d add proximity to nature: Yosemite, Tahoe, Marin, Santa Cruz, etc. If you enjoy the outdoors (biking, surfing, skiing, hiking, etc.) and want to be in a US city, I’ve yet to find anywhere better.

Sure, lots of people are leaving SF but I’d bet that covid is a good thing for the city longterm. Some tech people will return and others will take the place of those that don’t. Why? Because some companies and jobs will still need to be in SF and for all the reasons people came before tech (food, art, etc.).

SF was so over its carrying capacity and skewed toward tech that a reduction in population, a chance for local government to catch up, slightly lower rent, and hopefully a diversifying population might be exactly what the city needs.

I grew up in the Bay and work in tech and personally, a SF that’s a better balance between the city of my childhood and the tech city it has become sounds ideal.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#613

Post by amoorthy » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 9:56 PM UTC

tb303 wrote: post #497

amoorthy wrote: post #366

For me, the Bay Area offers a few benefits that are hard to replicate elsewhere. 1. Cultural diversity. I'm an immigrant and having lived in Seattle, Boston, NYC, and Philadelphia, I'd say the Bay Area is hands-down the most welcoming of all of those. It may seem like a small point but my parents and family can walk downtown in traditional clothing and no one even notices. Not true elsewhere. 2. The weather. Initiall…

1+2 for me, then i'd sub 3 with - access to the ocean, mountains (of different geology, from gentle rollers to crags & couloirs), forests, desert all within half a day's drive. not that your 3 isn't accurate, it would just be my #4 :)

:-) I love the scenery here too. I get a lot of happiness just by seeing mountains and the bay even if I don't hike/swim there that often. Just driving down 280 has such a calming effect in a way that no highway on the east coast ever does for me.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#614

Post by elevenoh » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 9:58 PM UTC

nunez wrote: post #532

scottlocklin wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always answer: fuck off; we're full. California, particularly Bay Area California is so ridiculously dysfunctional, the last thing any region needs is their refugees, who will bring with them the problems they're fleeing. Austin for example. Used to be a great place.

Austin isn’t full at all lol

Austin is good during quarantine. But not for safe, social, walkability.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#615

Post by dougmwne » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #466

dougmwne wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have lived in both SF and DC and think a few of your points are maybe a bit unfair to the east coast. I found DC's public transit and walkability to be quite a bit better than SF. True, the weather is less perfect, and maybe I am resistant to humidity and mild cold, but I generally found it pleasant to be outside for 9 months of the year. DC absolutely had a lot of diversity, partially due to immigration, but also…

I've spent probably a month total in DC, so I don't fully know its charms. And it's certainly a city that I get the appeal of, and I wouldn't be opposed to moving there if circumstances brought me there. But some thoughts: Walkability: for pros, DC is flatter and cleaner. The Metro is cleaner and more reliable than Muni. For cons, the city itself is a bit more spread out, and its hinterlands (e.g. Tysons or Silver Sp…

On the diversity angle, foreign-born is not the only metric. DC proper is about 45% Black which is an important part of its history and identity as a city. DC almost never gets snow so the "depths of winter" is a relative term. I walked and biked 365 days a year and so did most of my co-workers. It was common to not own a car, especially for younger people. In the hotter summer months I adapted by wearing lighter clothes or shoes for my commute and changing at work. I also kept a change of clothes at work in the event of a downpour, which was rare anyway. Everyone else deals with the same thing, so it's not weird to pop into the bathroom to change from shorts to pants on a hot day. Outdoor dining does shut down for a few of the colder months, but then when the first tables go outside again it can be a thrill. I get that the bay area weather is practically perfect every day; maybe I just don't require perfection.

Metro absolutely does not serve many areas. It's a far cry from NYC or European cities, but was totally workable as long as you stuck to the city and certain suburbs.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#616

Post by hn_user82179 » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:05 PM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #598

rpearl wrote: post #555

Nobody really brings up that the bay area is one of few places in the US where you can live without a car. Really, even compared to other "walkable" cities beyond a select few, similarly expensive places. Nobody really brings up that the bay area has better LGBT and other minority protections than anywhere in the US, either. Every time someone mentions cheap midwest cities I have to pull up https://crossingenres.com/…

Chicago and NYC do car-free better than the Bay Area, where not owning a car is really only viable in SF and a few small surrounding communities.

SF has a phenomenal climate though in comparison. The public transportation is lacking but I mind walking or bike a lot less in SF winters as opposed to NYC winters.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#617

Post by throwdour » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:05 PM UTC

cactus2093 wrote: post #157

throwdour wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think many people prefer petty crime to tech elites. With the upward pressure on rents over the last 10 years, even having your bike stolen every few weeks is cheaper than getting evicted and/or having to find a market rate dwelling. Of course, it's better to have neither exploding costs nor petty crime, but at the end of the day, dealing with petty crime is more affordable. EDIT: Getting downvoted to oblivion but…

You're not wrong that many people do seem to prefer the petty crime to tech. But you seem to be condoning that preference, and that preference is ridiculous. An economic boom should not be a bad thing. And tech is not raising rents, it is raising housing demand which could easily be met with a corresponding rise in supply that would limit the price increases, but new housing has been being actively blocked for decade…

"An economic boom should not be a bad thing"

You're right, but the reality is it has been a bad thing for many people. As long as they're being outmaneuvered by homeowners and landlords, having the boom simply end would work just as well as winning the housing supply fight. Few people are going to miss tech elites if they leave.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#618

Post by MrMorden » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:05 PM UTC

TuringNYC wrote: post #186

gonehome wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, this entire premise is that remote work would make that more possible (I personally don't believe this though). That said, the people I know that left aren't planning to find new work (for the most part). CO does have a lot of FAANG options though and Slack was also there. They're not looking for the most interesting work at that point, they're looking to keep their job and raise a family - it's a tradeoff. Isn…

>> They're not looking for the most interesting work at that point, they're looking to keep their job and raise a family - it's a tradeoff. >> Isn't that a risk to move to a place without as many employment options? Yes. The reason for that risk is you can raise kids in a nice house for $500k rather than in a tiny, old, 2 bedroom apartment for 1.5M. You exactly summarized my thought process three years ago. To be fai…

Maybe if those contractors are VP level or DINK; a senior IC working for a Beltway bandit might possibly, with a tailwind, clear 200k total compensation, but that's very much the high end of their pay scale despite the hourly rates they charge the government.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#619

Post by balfirevic » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:07 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #547

BurningFrog wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen a lot of predictions for "races for the bottom" over the years, and yet it's hard to remember one that actually happened. Economies usually don't work like that. Even if some version of that happens, it will still pay off to move out of SF. I think one of the big problems in the US is that growth and wealth are concentrated to a few hyper rich coastal cities, where most people can't afford to move. While la…

>I think one of the big problems in the US is that growth and wealth are concentrated to a few hyper rich coastal cities, where most people can't afford to move. While large parts of the country is relatively impoverished. This statement can be generalized to: "I think one of the big problems in the world is that growth and wealth are concentrated to a few hyper rich countries, where most people can't afford to move.…

It's worse when you generalize it to countries, because "can't afford to move" becomes "is not allowed by law to move".

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#620

Post by xvector » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

rpearl wrote: post #555

Nobody really brings up that the bay area is one of few places in the US where you can live without a car. Really, even compared to other "walkable" cities beyond a select few, similarly expensive places. Nobody really brings up that the bay area has better LGBT and other minority protections than anywhere in the US, either. Every time someone mentions cheap midwest cities I have to pull up https://crossingenres.com/…

And rent is sky-high, tax is insane, homeless with needles are everywhere, the city is one of the dirtiest in the country, and bleeding-heart citizens have passed propositions increasing crime and tying the hands of police. If there’s one thing I remember about the BART it’s the overwhelming noise and the constant smell of urine. The public transport situation is archaic and pales in comparison to other cities.

You can’t park anything other than a beater in the city or it’ll get broken into, and owning an apartment is a toss of a coin with regards to whether you’ll be forced to smell weed all day or not. For some reason air conditioning isn’t a thing in California either, and I’ve never experienced as many power outages anywhere else in the US as I have here. Owning a nice house here is a pipe dream, so if you want to settle, this area was never in the cards to begin with.

Maybe it’s no surprise that the only reason most of us are here is because of the pay. I miss the quiet idyll of the suburbs, those slow and peaceful days. I miss the clean air, the scent of my lawn in the morning, and having the room to stretch. The feeling of safety. I miss being able to live life at my own languid, relaxed pace.

At least we both seem to agree on one thing - the sooner I can move out of here, the better.