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Winning back the Internet by building our own

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Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#141
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>why would this new internet end up any different? I think the main advantage we have today is the hindsight of the past 25+ years. >What would be different this time around if we started from scratch? I think instead of one big Internet we'd build a bunch of smaller, trusted intranets, and provide controlled access via something like a web-of-trust system. >You can't expect every person to be skilled enough (and wit…

I essentially agree with you but there is a missing piece to this. There are food reasons people get tired of supporting their tribe or family’s IT infrastructure: 1. What we are supporting is often badly designed for individuals and so we’re doing mindless make work to overcome problems cause by corporations. I.e. we are experiencing an externality that a corporation is profiting from. 2. It’s often not reciprocated…

Thank you for replying so thoughtfully.

These are real problems that need to be addressed in order to make tribe technology sustainable.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I make a living by selling bikes, and you steal it from me, you are depriving me of my time and energy and money spent to maintain my business. That's what makes it theft. So your position is that if a company sells something, anything that deprives them of potential income is theft? If I set up a separate bike store down the street and charge less than you, have I stolen from you? How about if I give them awa…

If you set up a separate bike store, steal my bikes--which I spent my own money to create--from my store, and and give it away for free, then yes, you are a thief. If you set up a separate bike store AND make a bike with your own time and energy and money, and give it away for free, good luck on your business. p.s. I am a heavy user of Bittorrent myself and appreciate the technology (I'm sure most people on HN have d…

You're arguing circularly; it's stealing because it's theft because it's stealing. If I make my own bike store and produce bikes which are identical to yours without taking yours away, then it's not theft.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#143
Hi everyone,

We are the original authors of the post and thought we'd offer some very brief clarifications since there seems to be some good discussion about both the intent of the piece and our approach to the technology. Our hope is to let you know where we wanted to see the conversation go in. Where it actually goes is, of course, something of a collective choice.

We'll keep this short since some people have already provided good responses in some threads that we don't have much to add to.

First, on useful but ultimately tangential technologies:

fsflover writes:

> I2P does not require a special infrastructure and provides strong anonymity on top of existing networks.

mackrevinack writes:

> the safe network is going to be autonomous so it won't even need anyone to act as an admin. all you will need to do is log in to access your files

Munksgaard writes:

> I think gemini is an interesting alternative to the regular internet. It's deliberately designed to avoid many of the things making the web terrible

Others have suggested similar overlay networks, including GNUnet, Tor, and so on.

As we state in the article, overlay networks are useful, but they are by their very definition reliant upon existing hardware devices to provide the underlying network over which these networks lay. One of the goals of our article is to point out that a hyper-focusing on such overlay networks misses the point of "owning your own infrastructure" at a deeper (hardware) level. What good is an overlay network if your ISP refuses to relay your network frames to the next Layer 2 device?

In other words, LockAndLol said it best in their comment:

> Isn't [Gemini, etc.] just an application layer protocol? How will that create a new hardware network?

It won't, of course. That's not to discount such higher layer protocols. It's just that we're pointing to a side of the mountain that, in our opinion, too few have considered climbing: layer 1, the hardware.

Second, on the path from here to there and self-hosted services as being a better first step for most people than self-hosted infrastructure.

dnautics wrote:

> I think there's a market for something that is like "plug in to your local network, do minimal configuration, you can set up shared folders a la dropbox, and you can access it over the net".

Yes, we agree. In fact, that's how we teach things in our more involved classes and workshops: first, learn to run a service for yourself. Then learn how to build an internetworking connection to someone else, if you're still motivated and find doing this sort of thing fun. (If you don't find it fun, don't keep doing it. Replace "internetworking" with any other vocational trade, like plumbing or residential electrical wiring, or gardening, and the same advice would apply.) For most people, running Ethernet cable from one building to another or creating wireless links from one rooftop to another is a heavier lift than simply running a semi-private service on an RPi or similar with existing network infrastructure. But doing so doesn't resolve the infrastructure ownership problem, of course.

It's important to recognize these two problems as the two related but distinct problems that they are. In our article, we point out also that they are technically orthogonal from one another: one can "own one's own infrastructure" and use it to connect to Facebook, for example, or one can install something like a Mastodon instance on a spare workstation in one's home closet and ask one's "tribe" to use access it over connections originating from the existing (capital-I) Internet infrastructure. From the perspective of an autonomous community, neither of these scenarios is bad per se, they are both simply incomplete.

The point we made in our article is that unlike the situation 20 years ago, installing something like a Mastodon instance (or any of a bazillion other self-hostable services) is far easier and less expensive than it was then, yet most people we encounter (especially politically-inclined but not especially technologically experienced folks) tend to think the opposite is true. The perception that telecoms autonomy is less possible when the capabilities required to achieve such autonomy are actually more accessible is worth countering with more energy than we generally see it countered with. Hence, the article.

Put another way: given that so much more is possible at Layer 1 at far lower price points than has been possible ever before, and also that Layer 7 has seen an arguable overabundance of focus, we feel that hacker mindshare is better spent solving the part of the problem that hasn't received as much attention or honest community investment, which is "who owns the infrastructure," not "what software are you using to share files."

Finally, a few notes on the obvious political implications of this:

* "Who owns the infrastructure" is ultimately a political question, as it is fundamentally a matter of what "ownership" does (or should) mean. There are cynics who seem to think that any prolonged human activity will inevitably result in the same situation as the one we have now. We'll agree to disagree on the grounds that such assertions are at best Stop Energy and leave it at that.

* A number of people identified several sociopolitical forces at play here. For example, helen___keller wrote: "A large part of the complacency of the modern web is that most people (that I can see) are tired of it, whether or not they realize." Again, we agree, which is why our article tried to emphasize the utility and importance of "local services," where "local" means geographically local, not merely located on the same Ethernet broadcast domain or IP subnet as your NIC's current config.

By way of example, most restaurants in the Oklahoma City suburbs do not need a Web site accessible to visitors (or bots) in Tokyo, yet that is effectively what they are paying for when they pay their monthly Squarespace subscription (aka "Web rent"). We're not trying to argue that a global communications network is not useful, because it clearly is. Rather, we're simply pointing out that when a global(ized) infrastructure is the only available option for local coordination, or commerce, it is also clear that there are some obvious misalignments between layperson expectations, economic influences, and governance models that cause conflicts that can be resolved by investing in smaller-scale and geographically-conscious "local" networking solutions. Moreover, these two models (global and geographically local telecoms) do not, technologically speaking, need to be in conflict with one another. They are "not an either-or situation, nor a zero-sum game," as we say in the article.

To borrow a phrase from another recent post of ours ( https://c4ss.org/content/53915 ) that the Trump supporters in this thread are sure to like even less than this one: Reject the idea that successful mobilizations must be large, or that to do anything meaningful you must first do it "at scale." Instead, build coalitions with neighbors and others in your locality by building on relationships already established through earlier work building physical infrastructure together. Coalition means scaling out, not scaling up.

That can begin as simply as simply as sharing your Wi-Fi password with a neighbor in exchange for splitting the monthly Internet bill. This is true physical infrastructure coalition on a tiny, almost imperceptible scale that was damn near impossible just ten years ago. We think that's notable enough to write an article encouraging people to think moderately more ambitiously about what's possible.

That's all.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you set up a separate bike store, steal my bikes--which I spent my own money to create--from my store, and and give it away for free, then yes, you are a thief. If you set up a separate bike store AND make a bike with your own time and energy and money, and give it away for free, good luck on your business. p.s. I am a heavy user of Bittorrent myself and appreciate the technology (I'm sure most people on HN have d…

You're arguing circularly; it's stealing because it's theft because it's stealing. If I make my own bike store and produce bikes which are identical to yours without taking yours away , then it's not theft.

> If I make my own bike store and produce bikes which are identical to yours without taking yours away, then it's not theft.

That's exactly in line with what I said. It's not theft in that case. You are getting lost in your own analogy.

A bike is valuable because of the time, energy, and money put into producing it. If you set up your own bike store and produce the bike that's identical to my bike, you deserve to make money from it.

But that's not what's happening here. Here's what's happening: Let's say you start making your living by producing and selling bikes at your own bike store. One night I break into your bike store and just take a bike away. I didn't put in any time, energy, and money into producing the bike. You did. You spent your time, energy, and money to build that bike, which you could have spent on other things in life. If I didn't steal it, you could have made money from that bike. I deprived you of an opportunity to make money from your investment.

Let's use a more large scale example to see how this can be a very dangerous line of thought. A guy named anthony levandowski took intellectual property from Google and tried to produce autonomous vehicles which are identical to what Google was trying to build, WITHOUT taking google's technology away. Google can feel free to build their autonomous vehicle, what's the big deal? This is not stealing, right? Well, here's what happened: https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/4/21354906/anthony-levandows...

Intellectual property is very real. Just because certain types of intellectual property cannot be protected because of the nature of the digital technology, does NOT mean it is not stealing. Stealing is stealing. Some thefts are considered "ok" because "everyone else is doing it and there's no easy way to enforce it", but it's steal stealing.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#145

Perhaps this is self-serving of me, since I want to build a product like this, but: I think honestly the problem is that these systems are not consumer-oriented products. I think there is a real desire by people to not have to live as rentiers in the digital marketplace, but there are not really products that cater to that. IMO There's a place for something that merges a NAS, with some sort of overlay over current IP…

One the qualities of what you are describing is that the overlay networks do not have to be large. Almost every "LAN over IP" project you will find on the internet tries to be able to scale to infinity, so most of them are not appropriate for what you describe. However there is at least one I know of that does not try to scale like that and it works well. It is easy to segregate "LANs" (family, friends, colleagues). Each one can have its own TAP interface.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Music predates currency systems by quite a bit. I'm sure the art would change quite a bit if charging to listen to a song was no longer practical. Though I'm unconvinced that music would disappear. I can think of many kinds of musicians that do not get compensated per se: small time streamers, buskers, student musicians, garage bands, amateur music clubs, and religious music leaders off the top of my head. To reitera…

> Creators do have legal rights, but that's a whole other set of issues. This is the main issue at hand that I've been talking about, while you're treating it as a "whole other set of issues". When Alice spends her time and energy to produce X AND sell it, and Bob finds a way to get it for free against Alice's will, that is called stealing, no matter how you spin it. This is THE problematic part and what I am talking…

There's a difference between discussing what the law is and what the law ought to be.

And if you want to get technical, you're describing copyright infringement, not theft per se.

Anything else I'd probably type in response would mostly be reiterating my earlier points distinguishing between intellectual "property" and physical property, which haven't really been addressed. That is, "stealing" is the wrong word for it and people instinctively know it and make fun of it via "you wouldn't download a car" jokes.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#147
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> watching movies and show you didn’t pay for is theft When I have a bike and you steal it from me, you are depriving me of the use of that bicycle. That's what makes it theft. There is no deprival, therefore no theft in "watching something you didn't pay for". If you argue "you are depriving the right of the artist to make money" that makes the assumption that the right of an artist to coerce money out of the counte…

How does an artist “coerce money” out of someone? Unless you mean robbery?

Lawsuits and legal settlements come to mind.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#148

Discussing torrents: > people were more easily able to access the things they needed without being forced to ask or pay for permission to have them. Haha. We’re not talking about folks stealing bread to feed their family. We’re talking about people stealing entertainment. There’s a lot wrong with big media corporations: DMCA takedown notice misuse, copyright for life of the artist + 75 years, exploitative contracts,…

theft n. the generic term for all crimes in which a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker's use (including potential sale). In many states, if the value of the property taken is low (for example, less than $500) the crime is "petty theft," but it is "grand theft" for larger amounts, designated misdemeanor,…

I’m not angry. I just disagree. I think what you are doing is morally wrong, but it’s not a big deal. I’m sure you have some rationalization. As long as you can feel proud of what you do, that’s all that matters.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#149

Discussing torrents: > people were more easily able to access the things they needed without being forced to ask or pay for permission to have them. Haha. We’re not talking about folks stealing bread to feed their family. We’re talking about people stealing entertainment. There’s a lot wrong with big media corporations: DMCA takedown notice misuse, copyright for life of the artist + 75 years, exploitative contracts,…

I downloaded guardians of the galaxy recently because someone was praising the cgi and I just wanted a quick look at it, but there is no way I would go to the cinema to watch it and no way I would ever buy it on dvd even if it was being sold really cheap. basically they would not make any money from me either way, so what exactly is being stolen from them?

Yeah. That’s not really what we’re talking about. You can tell the difference, right?

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#150

Discussing torrents: > people were more easily able to access the things they needed without being forced to ask or pay for permission to have them. Haha. We’re not talking about folks stealing bread to feed their family. We’re talking about people stealing entertainment. There’s a lot wrong with big media corporations: DMCA takedown notice misuse, copyright for life of the artist + 75 years, exploitative contracts,…

> watching movies and show you didn’t pay for is theft When I have a bike and you steal it from me, you are depriving me of the use of that bicycle. That's what makes it theft. There is no deprival, therefore no theft in "watching something you didn't pay for". If you argue "you are depriving the right of the artist to make money" that makes the assumption that the right of an artist to coerce money out of the counte…

I am glad you’ve found a way to make a living while giving away your art. Really. That’s great. (There’s no way for this to not sound sarcastic, but I’m being genuine.)

But I am not clear what argument you are making? Are you arguing artists should not have the right to charge others for their art? Or can they only charge money if they give up something of value in return?

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