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With Proton and Steam Play, many Windows games now work on Linux

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Re: With Proton and Steam Play, many Windows games now work on Linux

#121
post #22

Another Linux gamer. I seriously don't miss windows anymore. At this point I'm not worried about compatibility, but rather shitty game companies banning you the second they figure out you're playing on linux. This is especially an issue in PvE heavy games that have only small PvP elements. Looking at you Destiny 2. I really wish companies stopped their draconian policies about Linux gaming. Or at the very least just…

How does Stadia strike you as an alternative? It works on anything (AFAIK) that runs Chrome.

I tried GeForce Now with a high speed internet connection (Comcast) with Counter-Strike and I found the game to be unplayable from the lag. I double checked my speed test and router settings, it should’ve been fine.

Ultimately I believe these services represent the future of gaming, but without net neutrality or alternative ISPs it’s going to be awhile before that future is realized.

Re: With Proton and Steam Play, many Windows games now work on Linux

#122
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern anticheats are basically kernel rootkits which go even to the point of trying to checksum your drivers and inspect how they work. They're basically as invasive as they get. They obviously can't hook into Linux kernel so they react by just banning the player.

Now I'm biased because I'm an anti-cheat developer, but I really can't see how checking the integrity of your installed kernel device drivers is at all invasive.

Because anti-cheat software is buggy, triggering a kernel crash which makes the whole machine unusable is a real possibility, additionally by running in kernel mode, the software bypasses all the OS protections, this can end up terribly if there's an exploit.

Re: With Proton and Steam Play, many Windows games now work on Linux

#123
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern anticheats are basically kernel rootkits which go even to the point of trying to checksum your drivers and inspect how they work. They're basically as invasive as they get. They obviously can't hook into Linux kernel so they react by just banning the player.

Now I'm biased because I'm an anti-cheat developer, but I really can't see how checking the integrity of your installed kernel device drivers is at all invasive.

I use a generic xbox 360 wireless receiver for my PC. The device drivers are an unsigned version of microsoft's drivers. Should I really have to buy the identical dongle for double the price, so that developers can dig into the depths of my OS to confirm that I'm not using a clone receiver?

I honestly see both sides of it, but at the end of the day, I am always hesitant to trust software with black-box functionality deep access to my computer. When I see a sudo command

We are already at the point of computers being able to balance a ping pong ball on a flat surface using just cameras. I can't imagine we are far from cheaters using entirely decoupled computers to physically control devices.

Re: With Proton and Steam Play, many Windows games now work on Linux

#124
Weirdly, on an older-ish Mac I'm having lots of trouble making 90s games work in Wine—basically, out of a dozen games only ‘Grand Prix Legends’ runs, since it kept being patched by the community for the past twenty years. Judging by the app db, Wine has some special relationship with Linux and Nvidia. Mac and Intel, not so much—I can have desktop software and not much else. Otherwise I'm stuck with PS1 emulation.

I have craving for SWAT 2 and I must satisfy it, even if it means installing Windows 98 on the NAS.

Re: With Proton and Steam Play, many Windows games now work on Linux

#125
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rdr2? Fuck, I'm in. I built a PC that i couldn't get windows running on due to some stupid uefi or something, i can't figure it out so it's sitting in the corner and I'm using a PlayStation now. I'll try putting Linux on it so i can use them games i bought but couldn't use because software is a fucking drm nightmare these days.

Can you explain that "UEFI thing"? There was a listing on ebay recently where the guy was selling his i7 8700+mobo+ram combo way under price because he said he couldn't run windows at all, only linux. It seemed so weird but google was not helping too much. What happened that you "bricked" it or was it factory setting?

FWIW I’m having trouble installing Windows on my AMD B450 system where Linux also runs fine. It locks up during the boot process after the first reboot.

Re: With Proton and Steam Play, many Windows games now work on Linux

#126
post #7

Unity actually exports Linux binaries so most developers could do Linux natively. The issue ends up being support cost vs sales. If 1% of your fan base runs Ubuntu, but they're 50% of your big reports, it's cheaper to not worry about them.

It's also not as trivial as just flipping to "Linux" in a combo box and re-exporting. Getting the game to run well requires work, from writing additional platform dependent code, through fixing issues caused by changing the graphics backend (unless you use OpenGL on Windows, which you probably don't) to a lot of additional QA needed to make sure your Linux build still runs after the latest changes.

I'm a solo game developer (working on [1] right now) and while I get many more requests for a native Linux version than I expected, I'm still reluctant to invest the necessary development time. It's ironic, but the very fact that Proton is so solid makes it even less likely that a Linux build will exist, since I'm fairly certain people will be able to play Slipways under Proton with hardly any issues if they want to.

[1]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1264280/Slipways

Re: With Proton and Steam Play, many Windows games now work on Linux

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Stadia strike you as an alternative? It works on anything (AFAIK) that runs Chrome.

Not op, but I think the biggest miss in cloud gaming is no one developing cloud first multiplayer games. Currently in any kind of client-server multiplayer game out there you face n+1 game states (n is the number of players) and a lot of the art is in how to reconcile these. The n+1 is due to most games implementing some degree of client autonomy (e.g. in movement), and the reality of network round trips from each cl…

How is this functionally different than any other game server dealing with player game states? Players would get even more warping and inexplicable behaviour as their state differed from the server state. You would just as likely get the same warping in Among Us as the game arbitrates the various players' states.

Re: With Proton and Steam Play, many Windows games now work on Linux

#128
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern anticheats are basically kernel rootkits which go even to the point of trying to checksum your drivers and inspect how they work. They're basically as invasive as they get. They obviously can't hook into Linux kernel so they react by just banning the player.

Now I'm biased because I'm an anti-cheat developer, but I really can't see how checking the integrity of your installed kernel device drivers is at all invasive.

I'm going to point out that if you want to go down this route, it is insufficient to just check that the base drivers are untampered with and signed by Microsoft or whatever vendor still.

You now maintain a list of potentially vulnerable drivers that can be used as a jumping off point (such as virtually every motherboard RGB or fan control system), and ban users that have these or hard-disable them at boot. There are some games that have caused machines to overheat by disabling cheat-jumpoffable fan controllers.

On top of that, you effectively have to maintain a whitelist of acceptable drivers, because cheat vendors are registering limited companies by the thousands (only $20 in the UK), getting an EV/codesigning cert, and signing their own drivers. Higher end cheats cost enough to offset this, and there might be less than 5-6 people using a particular certificate. Some of the people behind these also release vaguely-useful legal tools signed with the same certificates to get a large install base for them so they don't stick out.

That being said, IMO as a player, this is invasive as hell, and you should not be crawling through my flash drives, identifying my mouse, killing LogitechMacroSoftware.exe, etc. I'd rather you just collect snap/targetting/click timings server-side and run anomaly analysis on those rather than digging an asshole into my computer.

Also, now I have 5 different "kernel anticheats" running 24/7 simultaneously, half of them are horrifically written and known-insecure, and the other half need to figure out how to not explode spectacularly when the broken half tries to probe and kill it.

Korean MMOs are particularly bad for this and when forcefully uninstalled might permanently destroy disk access, make Windows non-genuine and deactivate it, and send all their data over plaintext (no TLS) with a bizarre, homegrown "encryption" method that is trivially breakable to a bare IP somewhere.

With KMMOs as an example (many of these reward you for staying logged in, have daily rewards, and similar; the game itself is fairly low resource when minimised), GameGuard and HackShield and XIGNCODE constantly have slap-fights where they bluescreen or flop over or die if you try to run multiple of them simultaneously and they try probing and killing each others' services for trying to tamper with themselves. It's like that ridiculous "what happens if three programs all try to demand Always On Top for their window", except give all of them heavy weaponry. These also have severe NIH syndrome for things like homemade shitty crypto and plaintext everything.

Re: With Proton and Steam Play, many Windows games now work on Linux

#130
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rdr2? Fuck, I'm in. I built a PC that i couldn't get windows running on due to some stupid uefi or something, i can't figure it out so it's sitting in the corner and I'm using a PlayStation now. I'll try putting Linux on it so i can use them games i bought but couldn't use because software is a fucking drm nightmare these days.

Can you explain that "UEFI thing"? There was a listing on ebay recently where the guy was selling his i7 8700+mobo+ram combo way under price because he said he couldn't run windows at all, only linux. It seemed so weird but google was not helping too much. What happened that you "bricked" it or was it factory setting?

Not OP but I had a terrible experience installing Windows 10 on my machine. UEFI boot, NVME root disk. Windows would boot the installer, but would refuse to install. Disabling UEFI would cause it to install but there were issues so I had to bite the bullet and keep trying UEFI.

I had to install linux(because Windows recovery is terrible and can't do much), fiddle around with pre-creating a partition table on the format it wanted, and then eventually got it to work. Don't ask me how, I spent hours trying every combination under the sun. Windows error messages are very cryptic and not at all helpful.

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