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Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

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Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if you teach them" Yeah well, lots of javascript programmers are not formally taught. That is still the point. Anyone can write C programms if taken by the hand. But not without. But allmost anyone can write javascript without being taken by the hand. You just open the console/integrated dev tools. Type in some commands you see on some website - voila, first programm. Then you can make experiments on the fly - becau…

> Anyone can write C programms if taken by the hand A textbook is hardly "taken by the hand". But never mind that. > You just open the console/integrated dev tools. And how does someone with zero knowledge of web programming know these even exist? > Type in some commands you see on some website - voila, first programm Right. How is this any different from a JS programmer looking up "Hello world" on a C programming we…

As someone who writes JS for a living, I think you should re-examine your beliefs about C and JS programmers' ability and proficiency.

Or just actually try to teach people JS and then try to teach them C++.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#472

My first browser I was accustomed to using was Netscape on a Mac. Search engines were Hotbot and Webcrawler after Yahoo. Cannot recall the others. When I think back IE browser was the top browser and there were all sorts of workarounds to get it html compliant (or rather IE compliant). Easy to learn html, but hard to get it working right. Then adding in javascript for the added dynamic flair. I wanted to learn javasc…

Thunderbird debuted as Netscape mail and was combined in Netscape Communicator suite I believe. Memory fuzzy.

I do recall using Thunderbird at some point. Anyone still using a local client?

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...not invented to be application platforms. Phones were invented to only make phone calls. Coca-Cola was originally created as a way to counter morphine addiction. Listerine was originally a floor cleaner. None of those were turds and neither is the web as an application platform. Quite the opposite- Native apps suck compared to web apps. The only native apps I personally use besides the browser on my phone are Ma…

Right. Because Slack is such a joy to use in browsers that there is no native app needed. Oh wait. Yes there is. It's the web app as a native app, because the browser experience literally wasn't good enough. Saying web apps are superior to native apps is like saying a bicycle with a 2-stroke is superior to a motorcycle. Maybe for your use case it's better, but objectively it is literally a crappy imitation of the rea…

> Saying web apps are superior to native apps is like saying a bicycle with a 2-stroke is superior to a motorcycle.

Nope, it's not like saying that at all.

Your entire argument rests on denying that Electron is a browser too. That's incorrect. Electron is just another browser, one that the web app developer happens to have more control over than they do Chrome. Every Electron app is a web app. Browsers have always handled the native bits for the web app and that's exactly what Electron does. (On the mobile side of things, React Native via something like Expo would be the equivalent of Electron on the desktop.)

Together, the browser and the web app form a native app because a browser is basically a scriptable native app. So, your argument is that "native apps > scriptable native apps" which makes no sense.

> Maybe for your use case it's better...

Web tech is absolutely better for every user-facing (GUI) use case. Even with 3D games which are streaming via browsers right now - performance might not be the greatest right away but since browsers have all the capabilities that any other native apps has (because they're native apps themselves) - it wouldn't be inconceivable that 3D web games could perform on par with native 3D games.

Personally, I develop all of my CLI/server apps with web tech as well (that'd be JavaScript running under Node.js). There's really nothing better - and that's why JavaScript is the most popular programming language in the world by far.

> A web app is the Visual Basic of applications (but not really since VB is so much more useful!)

Having started my career with VBA I couldn't disagree more. But even so, is VB (VB5/6/VBA/VB.NET?) your go-to native development environment? Any of those choices are laughable IMO, but okay - I guess enjoy developing all of your apps in VB then :)

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#474
post #163
post #151

Not my fav announcement. This funny (I think) video shows why: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat Disclaimer: I like types, I hate automatic casting.

It is wild to revisit some of the inspiration of the kind of weaponized cynicism that hopefully we're getting away from. This talk was funny for sure, but it started a large amount of "computers are awful, look at what this stupid thing did" which was very harmful. Not because it isn't true, but because understanding why and how these things happen, dealing with and educated people surrounding these things, and tryin…

> educat[ing] people surrounding these things

hmmm... i see more and more schools/unis teaching JS to beginners. it's beginning to be more of an elephant in the room than a poor kid that's bullies all the time.

isn't calling this "weaponized cynicism" a way to silence dissent against the mainstream? JS clearly is mainstream now.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#475
post #474
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is wild to revisit some of the inspiration of the kind of weaponized cynicism that hopefully we're getting away from. This talk was funny for sure, but it started a large amount of "computers are awful, look at what this stupid thing did" which was very harmful. Not because it isn't true, but because understanding why and how these things happen, dealing with and educated people surrounding these things, and tryin…

> educat[ing] people surrounding these things hmmm... i see more and more schools/unis teaching JS to beginners. it's beginning to be more of an elephant in the room than a poor kid that's bullies all the time. isn't calling this "weaponized cynicism" a way to silence dissent against the mainstream? JS clearly is mainstream now.

I think proper disagreement and criticism can be had communicating directly. Framing it as knowing "how it really is" or appealing to a supposed common knowledge of a criticism is an unfair and disingenuous form of communication.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't so much think of them as flaws... the first use case was form validation, and most of the fuzzy type coercion makes a ton of sense through that lens, where ''. 0, etc. coercion to falsy is easy for dealing with user input. It's also why it's one of my favorite options for ETL workloads. It's just a matter of understanding the langauge. That said, it's been my favorite language since well before the "good part…

I use JS every day; I would say I like it. I would even say that in 2020, if you know what you're doing, it's a pretty good language on the whole. But I don't think it's controversial to say that the following were objectively bad decisions (in hindsight, of course, but still): - Automatic casting behavior between the core types (you're the only person I've ever heard suggest that this might be a good thing) - Automa…

I would suggest that today, you're best off using TypeScript for anything more complex in terms of applications development. Will probably play around more with Deno bundling if I get the time, though currently using Parcel, which is nice enough, but slow.

I didn't like TS at first, but using the most recent version has been relatively pleasant and working with less experienced devs has been almost required in order to do further refactors. I killed a month trying to do a complex refactor ad-hoc, in circling around, I was able to convert the entire project to TS in a couple days, introduce typing for core state and a few other areas which allowed me to do the rest of the refactor in a couple days. That sold me on TS, as long as I don't HAVE to type everything, or jump through the hoops as I did on my first experience with TS, which was combined with Angular projects.

The casting behavior is definitely a foot-gun, but it's powerful as I mention for validation and ETL type workflows. The "falsy" values list is literally my guide marker in interviews for JS devs. It's usually a pretty good benchmark for how well a developer understands the language itself..

Totally agreed on the Date object. Absolutely horrible, and moment, while useful was huge and most other hacks aren't all that great either. The Date object really should be extended as probably the next major bump in usability in the system. Even if it was just extended enough for parity for what C#/.Net offers for their DateTime/DateTimeOffset then other libraries could flush it out and be much smaller.

One useful thing to know, is that assigning an object property to undefined will skip that property as part of json serialization and is faster than delete on the property I'll often do something like return JSON.stringify(Object.assign({}, original, {propToHide: undefined}) in node APIs. This is about the only useful bit from undefined I can think of off hand.

Global variable assignment by default is definitely a flaw.

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