Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship • Hacker News Board

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#71

Post by rglullis » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:01 AM UTC

webmobdev wrote: post #57

john_minsk wrote: post #28

I just paid for 12 months worth of Skype subscription which I have used for just 2 calls back in January. I want ALL my subscriptions to go through Apple Pay and App store. Once I subscribed to New York times. The newspaper that was advertised to me for years in all Hollywood movies as a place where honesty and freedom are of highest priority. I had to spend an hour on a phone with their representatives to cancel it…

> I want ALL my subscriptions to go through Apple Pay and App store. You do so only because you believe have no choice as you know that your democracy is so crippled that you don't expect them to protect your rights as a consumer any more! Where as many Europeans and Asians, who also enjoy democratic rights, will tell you openly that we would prefer that our democratically elected government protect our consumer righ…

This idea is one of my favorite tells to find out the level of alienation of people regarding their own governments.

The top 10 conglomerates from South Korea amount to more than half their GDP. This level of centralization alone should tell you how the regulations are enacted to protect the corporations, not the people.

If Germany (and more generally Brussels) was actually serious about environmental regulations, VW and all the German car makers would be exterminated after Dieselgate. Instead they got one or two scapegoats for VW (and no, the CEO being ousted and still receiving a generous retirement package does not count) and made it clear that the regulations are there just to give the people the illusion of control.

"For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law" -- this is what your democratically elected government is giving you.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#72

Post by AntiImperialist » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:02 AM UTC

fnordprefect wrote: post #10

This all comes down to the statement near the end: "I believe Apple should simply refuse to cooperate with oppressive governments" Which is another way of saying "I believe Apple should either not operate in certain countries, or should try to operate in those countries in defiance of the laws of those countries." The beef is primarily with the government. Companies are stuck in the middle -- either operate in compli…

Except for the prescedent set by the Nuremberg trials.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#73

Post by kochthesecond » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:06 AM UTC

john_minsk wrote: post #28

I just paid for 12 months worth of Skype subscription which I have used for just 2 calls back in January. I want ALL my subscriptions to go through Apple Pay and App store. Once I subscribed to New York times. The newspaper that was advertised to me for years in all Hollywood movies as a place where honesty and freedom are of highest priority. I had to spend an hour on a phone with their representatives to cancel it…

> At least big tech is quite rich to afford to think about users.

Sadly, this is reality. It is very hard to prioritize in most places living on thin margins.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#74

Post by Veen » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:07 AM UTC

lqet wrote: post #60

chadcmulligan wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more a religion or cult according to neuroscience https://www.cnet.com/news/scientists-apple-makes-your-brain-...

> Religion is a touchy subject. Oddly enough, as I have come to discover in these pages, so is Apple. This has also been my experience. I know people with whom I just avoid talking about Apple. Personally I just accept that Apple is their religion (some of them have Apple bumper stickers) and that religion is something deeply personal.

There are people who develop a religious fervour for brands, but I too often see that used as an excuse to dismiss legitimate arguments and preferences. Some people seem to develop an almost religious antipathy to brands and their customers. If Apple fanatics think Jobs or Cook are Jesus-like, the detractors seem to cast them as one rung up from Lucifer.

It's assumed that if you prefer Apple products, it must be because you're brainwashed or ignorant. The possibility that there are rational reasons for preferring Apple and its ecosystem is rejected with no consideration.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#75

Post by Nextgrid » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:12 AM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #68

sudosysgen wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is incredibly simple. Allow the iPhone to be fully unlocked, which makes it possible to install any software. Then, Apple isn't in the position to apply the censorship to begin with, and it can both allow for a way to install these apps, and follow local rules. It's not some issue that everyone else has to contend with. You can buy a Pixel or an LG in China and install anything you want on it. It's only…

> Allow the iPhone to be fully unlocked, which makes it possible to install any software. There isn't a disclaimer in the world that would make this worth it. If someone bricks their phone with a dodgy app after "fully unlocking", they WILL be going after Apple, not the app developer. I consider the locked nature of Apple devices a feature and an useful at that.

We've had unlocked desktop PCs for decades and the only "bricking" you can imagine is BIOS updates going wrong, and even that is nowadays going away with things like fallback BIOSes.

It's perfectly possible to allow arbitrary third-party software without exposing the device to a risk of bricking.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#76

Post by rglullis » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:13 AM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #61

webmobdev wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want ALL my subscriptions to go through Apple Pay and App store. You do so only because you believe have no choice as you know that your democracy is so crippled that you don't expect them to protect your rights as a consumer any more! Where as many Europeans and Asians, who also enjoy democratic rights, will tell you openly that we would prefer that our democratically elected government protect our consumer righ…

Well, okay, it may be the case that our democracy is so crippled that it can’t protect basic consumer rights. But even so, what are we supposed to do? Quit our jobs, abandon our livelihoods, and take to the streets until our government decides we’re too much trouble and hands over power to a more consumer-friendly replacement government? Or just continue to want to use subscriptions through Apple where possible?

This is a false dichotomy that both pro-government and pro-corporate people fall into. Whether Apple or "Our Government", we shouldn't be giving this much power to institutions.

> But even so, what are we supposed to do?

Vote with your wallet. Stop consuming whatever it is that comes with attached strings. Stop putting convenience above principles. Refuse to pay/subscribe/accept any terms that are clearly not in your best interest.

You don't need Big Government to do that. You don't even need to be part of a mobilized group. It's in your hands and every individual can choose for themselves. Let's take responsibility for our own actions and stop using the vices/failings of others to excuse ourselves to do the same.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#77

Post by MaxBarraclough » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:20 AM UTC

laurent92 wrote: post #46

mdoms wrote: post #35

It's really not normal to be "in love" with a corporation to begin with....

I always find it funny when people describe the beliefs of middle-ages as bigoted, believing God more than Galileo (or so the legend says) when clearly today, some masses clearly believe in states being the originator of public good, and some corporations being worth worshipping. Civilizations have evolved, but humans still be humans ;)

I agree it's rather silly for an adult to have a strong emotional attachment to a corporation. I can understand a child feeling that way about the company behind their favourite products, but it seems unbecoming in adults. The best example might be Apple 'fanboys'. (I don't know of a gender-neutral term here. Fanboy implies an excess of appreciation, but fan means something weaker.)

I don't see that it has much to do with religion though. It's only silly because of the specifics of what a corporation is - a somewhat amoral body of capital, very roughly speaking - but it's not always silly to be attached to an institution. There's nothing religious about supporting the Against Malaria Foundation, or the EFF, or (here in the UK) the National Health Service.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#78

Post by Hokusai » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:20 AM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #76

tshaddox wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, okay, it may be the case that our democracy is so crippled that it can’t protect basic consumer rights. But even so, what are we supposed to do? Quit our jobs, abandon our livelihoods, and take to the streets until our government decides we’re too much trouble and hands over power to a more consumer-friendly replacement government? Or just continue to want to use subscriptions through Apple where possible?

This is a false dichotomy that both pro-government and pro-corporate people fall into. Whether Apple or "Our Government", we shouldn't be giving this much power to institutions. > But even so, what are we supposed to do? Vote with your wallet. Stop consuming whatever it is that comes with attached strings. Stop putting convenience above principles. Refuse to pay/subscribe/accept any terms that are clearly not in your…

> You don't need Big Government to do that.

Regulations are there tools that citizens have to reign in corporate behavior. 'Big government' is just a catch name for many anti regulation lobbying entities to remove power from citizens and acumulats it on corporations.

> Vote with your wallet.

Yes. And also vote with your ballots, one person one vote triumphs one dollar one vote if you want freedom.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#79

Post by strogonoff » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:26 AM UTC

fnordprefect wrote: post #10

This all comes down to the statement near the end: "I believe Apple should simply refuse to cooperate with oppressive governments" Which is another way of saying "I believe Apple should either not operate in certain countries, or should try to operate in those countries in defiance of the laws of those countries." The beef is primarily with the government. Companies are stuck in the middle -- either operate in compli…

I know that if Apple did not offer products in some of the countries I live(d), many more citizens would be using spyware-loaded phones—because they don’t have the skills or dedication to use a PinePhone (or even to clear their Android devices of preinstalled malware and maintain them in that state), because it’s infeasible for them to purchase an Apple device overseas, or because they just don’t know better—which would lower the bar for propaganda and censorship, ensuring people with inconvenient opinions are fewer and farther between.

It seems highly unlikely that oppressive governments would be compelled to stop being such if Apple decided to withdraw from their countries’ markets. Yes, it is profitable to allow and tax Apple’s sales, but by my reckoning not nearly enough to pursue through a fundamental shift in political climate. (Yes, some citizens will wonder what happened, but considering Apple’s minor market share and domestic media’s capability to spin the story in favour of the leading party, public opinion would hardly be a factor either.)

To allude to an essay I read recently, a withdrawal in this context would be somewhat akin to Apple acting like Star Trek Federation (first do no harm, avoid mistakes at all costs), while remaining engaged, preserving the opportunity to enact a positive change laterally through non-obvious implications of attractive technology with superior security, would be them acting more like Culture.

Re: Falling Out of Love with Apple, Part 3: Content and Censorship

#80

Post by the_other » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:27 AM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #76

tshaddox wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, okay, it may be the case that our democracy is so crippled that it can’t protect basic consumer rights. But even so, what are we supposed to do? Quit our jobs, abandon our livelihoods, and take to the streets until our government decides we’re too much trouble and hands over power to a more consumer-friendly replacement government? Or just continue to want to use subscriptions through Apple where possible?

This is a false dichotomy that both pro-government and pro-corporate people fall into. Whether Apple or "Our Government", we shouldn't be giving this much power to institutions. > But even so, what are we supposed to do? Vote with your wallet. Stop consuming whatever it is that comes with attached strings. Stop putting convenience above principles. Refuse to pay/subscribe/accept any terms that are clearly not in your…

"Stop consuming... " isn't enough. You also have to do some of the work needed for the other side of "vote with your wallet". "Vote" for the system/product/method you wish to see. This might include building it yourself, using crowdfunding/micropayments for journalists/politicians/artists you trust/follow.