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Show HN: Boltstream – Self-hosted full end-to-end live video streaming platform

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Re: Show HN: Boltstream – Self-hosted full end-to-end live video streaming platform

#61
post #57

Cool! Some thoughts from a former Twitch engineer: - Probably the hardest part of running these things is managing outbound bandwidth costs. You'll need to either limit inbound bitrate or transcode video down to a manageable rate, or else you'll quickly spend a lot of money on shipping 4k video for people. - Right now, your nginx hosts both do ingest and playback, if I understand it right. You might want to separate…

> Probably the hardest part of running these things is managing outbound bandwidth costs. This might be a good time to mention that Hetzner (where I host) has a lot of unmetered gigabit options. I'm not affiliated, just a happy (long term) customer. Sadly Germany has some laws that censor certain types of harmless content, so that's one downside, but that's not Hetzner's fault, just something to consider depending on…

> Sadly Germany has some laws that censor certain types of harmless content

What is this harmless content that's censored?

Re: Show HN: Boltstream – Self-hosted full end-to-end live video streaming platform

#62

How secure do you think Twitch (Amazon), Facebook Gaming (Facebook), and Youtube Live (Google) are at the top of the streaming world? We’ve recently seen Mixer (Microsoft) fall, and it feels like the creators are the only thing keeping these platforms great, so what’s stopping a new streaming platform from rising above all the others other than the creator’s fear of losing stability? Why couldn’t a new streaming serv…

As a gamer, I've never even heard of Mixer, and I don't think I am familiar with Facebook Gaming. I am familiar with Twitch and Youtube live, although I don't really watch livestreams, only "Best of" compilations on Youtube. The community around livestream chats is turning me off, with it's endless spam of "pog" and other memes.

Re: Show HN: Boltstream – Self-hosted full end-to-end live video streaming platform

#63
post #61
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Probably the hardest part of running these things is managing outbound bandwidth costs. This might be a good time to mention that Hetzner (where I host) has a lot of unmetered gigabit options. I'm not affiliated, just a happy (long term) customer. Sadly Germany has some laws that censor certain types of harmless content, so that's one downside, but that's not Hetzner's fault, just something to consider depending on…

> Sadly Germany has some laws that censor certain types of harmless content What is this harmless content that's censored?

Video game gore/violence is one example, though there are many others; German censorship law is relatively broadly worded.

Games sold in Germany have to have their gore reduced (relative to versions legal in other countries) to be legal for publication in Germany.

I'm not a lawyer, but my amateur assumption is that publication of video streams is subject to the same content rules as publication of game software.

Re: Show HN: Boltstream – Self-hosted full end-to-end live video streaming platform

#64

Cool! Some thoughts from a former Twitch engineer: - Probably the hardest part of running these things is managing outbound bandwidth costs. You'll need to either limit inbound bitrate or transcode video down to a manageable rate, or else you'll quickly spend a lot of money on shipping 4k video for people. - Right now, your nginx hosts both do ingest and playback, if I understand it right. You might want to separate…

Any specifics on DoS? What sort of strategies to prevent a malicious user pushing multiple streams to DoS encoders, etc?

Re: Show HN: Boltstream – Self-hosted full end-to-end live video streaming platform

#65

Cool! Some thoughts from a former Twitch engineer: - Probably the hardest part of running these things is managing outbound bandwidth costs. You'll need to either limit inbound bitrate or transcode video down to a manageable rate, or else you'll quickly spend a lot of money on shipping 4k video for people. - Right now, your nginx hosts both do ingest and playback, if I understand it right. You might want to separate…

I don’t like RT[M|S]P, but I have not seen an acceptable alternative for realtime streaming.

The main reason I don’t like RTMP, is because it isn’t supported at the OS level in Apple systems (the platform I program for).

HLS doesn’t come close to RTMP. It’s designed for movie streaming, and doesn’t support realtime streaming. I write video surveillance software, and the HLS lag is unacceptable.

Re: Show HN: Boltstream – Self-hosted full end-to-end live video streaming platform

#66
I have some questions for people in this field.

Is there a good way to broadcast to Twitch, YouTube, and Reddit simultaneously? Is it a bad idea to target multiple communities?

How expensive is it to run your own single-tenant stream on your own website? Is that a bad idea?

Are users revolting on Twitch against the ads and RIAA take downs? Or is it unlikely to ever be unseated?

Re: Show HN: Boltstream – Self-hosted full end-to-end live video streaming platform

#67
post #57

Cool! Some thoughts from a former Twitch engineer: - Probably the hardest part of running these things is managing outbound bandwidth costs. You'll need to either limit inbound bitrate or transcode video down to a manageable rate, or else you'll quickly spend a lot of money on shipping 4k video for people. - Right now, your nginx hosts both do ingest and playback, if I understand it right. You might want to separate…

> Probably the hardest part of running these things is managing outbound bandwidth costs. This might be a good time to mention that Hetzner (where I host) has a lot of unmetered gigabit options. I'm not affiliated, just a happy (long term) customer. Sadly Germany has some laws that censor certain types of harmless content, so that's one downside, but that's not Hetzner's fault, just something to consider depending on…

You could use their Finnish dc. (no idea if Finnish laws are any better in this regard)

Re: Show HN: Boltstream – Self-hosted full end-to-end live video streaming platform

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[0] RTMP is common; `nginx-rtmp` is not common in industry to my knowledge. RTMP ingest is a pretty different task from HTTP reverse proxying. Wowza used to be the common software that was used. Twitch moved off of Wowza and wrote their own ingest stack when I worked there.

Facebook live ( https://engineering.fb.com/2015/12/03/ios/under-the-hood-bro... ) and several others use nginx-rtmp. It's fairly common in china as well from what I've seen. RTMP is still the best protocol for publishing live streams IMO, and in my experience http-flv blows HLS out of the water for < 1 sec latency. The protocol is old but at least you aren't 15 seconds behind the action.

nginx-rtmp hasn't seen a commit in 3 years, kinda unmaintained.

Re: Show HN: Boltstream – Self-hosted full end-to-end live video streaming platform

#69

Cool! Some thoughts from a former Twitch engineer: - Probably the hardest part of running these things is managing outbound bandwidth costs. You'll need to either limit inbound bitrate or transcode video down to a manageable rate, or else you'll quickly spend a lot of money on shipping 4k video for people. - Right now, your nginx hosts both do ingest and playback, if I understand it right. You might want to separate…

Some great points! I built a project similar to this (think online lectures but it never went anywhere) in spring when the pandemic hit. I highly recommend building a platform like this if you have some spare time. It involves lots of interesting engineering/architecture challenges all over the stack. IMHO, from a technical viewpoint, it's mostly integration work, as all the really hard parts were already done by excellent 3rd party tools and libraries. You'll probably have some kind of RTMP bridge (nginx [1]), wrap ffmpeg for transcoding and play it back using something like Shaka player [2] where the segments are being served by some kind of caching reverse proxy. It took me a few weeks to get a prototype running inside a K8S cluster where oAuth-ed users could publish RTMPS streams which could be watched by other authed users via HLS in a somewhat scalable way. It was surprisingly easy to build this using Elixir/Phoenix LiveView. Some thoughts on your comment:

> - Probably the hardest part of running these things is managing outbound bandwidth costs.

This. As others noted, you may be getting around this by using something like Hetzner's/Scaleway's/OVH's offerings. However, I think they won't be too happy if you really use that much bandwidth all the time. You can probably forget using IaaS of one of the bigger cloud platforms unless you negotiated some special terms.

> - You'll almost certainly need admin and moderation tools soon.

That's one of the main reasons why I did offer a public instance. It's probably best to host a platform like this in a non-public context such as members of a single org. Just look at what happened to Firefox Send...

> - Please don't keep using RTMP [...] and its security is, uh, _weak_.

Yes it is a bit of a pain to work with but AFAIK you can wrap RTMP inside a TLS session which is supported by OBS. I think I just exposed a stunnel instance back then which forwarded it to a nginx instance which handled auth/auth and forwarding to the transcoding backend. This way you won't leak any streaming keys or video data. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If you have any additional pointers regarding RTMP security, I would be highly interested!

Also, as others pointed out, SRT may be just around the corner. I think we're in for some interesting times as LL-DASH/CMAF and similar technologies are more widely supported. Additionally, there are interesting projects like [3] going the WebRTC route for delivering low latency streams.

[1] https://github.com/arut/nginx-rtmp-module

[2] https://github.com/google/shaka-player

[3] https://www.ovenmediaengine.com

Re: Show HN: Boltstream – Self-hosted full end-to-end live video streaming platform

#70
post #66

I have some questions for people in this field. Is there a good way to broadcast to Twitch, YouTube, and Reddit simultaneously? Is it a bad idea to target multiple communities? How expensive is it to run your own single-tenant stream on your own website? Is that a bad idea? Are users revolting on Twitch against the ads and RIAA take downs? Or is it unlikely to ever be unseated?

> Is there a good way to broadcast to Twitch, YouTube, and Reddit simultaneously?

Yes (disc: I dunno about reddit, do they have livestreams? haha I had no idea) restream.io is one service that does this, or you can configure your own nginx-rtmp

> Is it a bad idea to target multiple communities?

Probably, the way you're suggesting. Find your niche and stream on the site they use. You'll look like you're talking to nobody most of the time unless your users gather in one place. Viewers (ok, it's me) don't like it when you answer a question from someone and can't see what the question was. At least factor that in if you go down this path - re-state the question

> How expensive is it to run your own single-tenant stream on your own website?

Almost zero because nobody will watch it

> Is that a bad idea?

Not really but it might be a waste of time

> Are users revolting on Twitch against the ads and RIAA take downs?

Nah everyone else has forgotten and moved on. At the least folks don't care enough for there to be an uproar about it

> Or is it unlikely to ever be unseated?

Twitch unseated? On the heading they're on now, probably. Literally all they need to do is stop ads and push subs and they'll be locked in for generations. A single sub is worth like 2500 ad views and people gift them in 5s, 10s, 20s like it's going out of style.. what are they even doing with this ad focus? The only ads I even see are ads for Amazon Prime shows I've already watched anyway! Who's even paying for these??

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