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Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

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91–100 of 201 posts

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#91
For a counter argument, I don't think M1 is going to disrupt anything. Its a great performer for sure, but its locked to a proprietary and closed ecosystem controlled by a single entity.

Its a new direction for Apple in their laptop architecture, and a solid first step, but the raw performance is not up to the fastest from AMD and Intel, and it lacks the ability to upgrade any of its components. I get it, its a laptop, but if you want to talk about performance lets put it out there: its a fast laptop.

People already in the Apple ecosystem will love M1, but it lacks a compelling reason to switch to Apple. Apple already made the best laptops, the M1 keeps that crown. People that were satisfied buying Windows laptops and Chromebooks will continue to do so because the criteria they used when making a buying decision involved other factors than "I want the best".

I expect SoC designs to fracture the CPU market in the coming years and kill AMD and Intel, but unless M1 opens up to other designers and companies its a tangent in the great CPU race.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#92
We all know Apple is good at marketing.

And by dumping x86 and making the switch to ARM, Apple really has a lot riding here on its ARM processor. So we can understand the hint of desperation in pushing and publicising the M1 so much, especially targeting the Christmas shoppers. I have mixed feeling about this hype for the following reasons:

1. ARM processors have been ready for the desktop markets for a really long time. Hell, if the buggy and resource heavy Windows 95 / 98 could run "smoothly" on a single core 200 Mhz Pentium MMX, today's faster and multi-core ARMs have the potential to do much more with the right software. And that's exactly what has been holding ARM processors from the desktop market so far - decent system software and applications for it. It is in this area that Apple really deserves commendation for designing an ARM SoC well optimised for their system softwares (the macOS / ios platform).

2. With a well-designed SoC, and a decently optimised OS, it is not surprising that that the M1 is able to compete and match performance with the current Intel and AMD chips. The lower power performance and longer battery life is just an extra icing on the cake that ARM is already famous for. Apple is doing what it does best - utilising its strength of integrating the software and hardware to get the best possible performance out of a device.

3. Competition is good for us consumers. But for those of us like me, who prefer "freer and open" systems, I'd place my bet on Intel and AMD in the long run. They still have a huge advantage over other processors in not only raw performance, but portability and backward compatibility of software on their system. Hell, this is one of the reason why many of us, hesitant of Apple's famous obsessive control over their devices, were swayed to purchased an Intel mac - if Apple turned the screw on us, we could theoretically turn away from it by switching to another OS.

4. And as the Intel and AMD competition has shown us, both have bested each other in the past at some point, and continue to do so. As Apple's past switching of CPUs and architecture shows, even they recognize that marketing can only get you so far and people won't pay a premium if the hardware isn't atleast equal to the competition. In a year or two, both Intel and AMD will have even better processors. Will Apple be able to sustain competing with them in the long term will be interesting to watch for.

5. As I mentioned before, Intel and AMD's huge advantage over ARM processors in general, and here specifically with Apple processor, is that they are more "open and free" when compared to the ARM platform that are a jumble of closed and customised SoCs. We all know Apple's nature here - they are extremely obsessive about controlling the device totally, and least interested in letting their users customise it outside the bounds they set (hardware or software). A highly customised and closed ARM SoC gives them precisely that kind of control on the desktop that they have been desiring for a long time. The closed ios platform has proved to them that they can earn RECURRING revenues from such devices - they earn billions of dollars from the App Store. Apple's desktop processors now allow them to do the same with the mac Desktops.

And that's why as an Apple user who owns a mac and is typing this on his iPad, I don't celebrate the Apple processors, or their temporary "game changing" performance. I don't want to live in a gilded cage, deprived of my computing freedom.

And I know it doesn't matter to Apple - it's still a huge profit for Apple even if they lose 100's of thousands of users like me because they'd rather have millions of non-tech savvy users who see a smart-phone or a tablet just like their TV or microwave - day to day appliance whose working they don't understand but are glad to have. Apple can make more money from these consumers than from us.

It was a sad day when we developers had to pay Apple for the privilege to develop and distribute software on it. It was disconcerting as a user to pay an "Apple tax" when you are not even buying the software from them. It is depressing now that Apple processor has tightened this stranglehold even further now, with the push to convert a computer to a calculator like appliance that will run only Apple authorised softwares. I celebrate the innovations but have no reason to celebrate Apple's role and only hope it fails. Its success will result in further imitation of Apple's business practice and pushing of such closed ARM SoCs by others in this industry - the future of fragmented, incompatible, custom and closed ARM processors is not something I look forward to at all as a developer or a user.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#93
post #24
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? If everyone gives up and just builds everything on the web then it's an indirect boon for Linux, but M1 will probably never ever properly support Linux. Unless Apple have a complete change of heart, if it ever does it will be as a result of far too much work done for free

Early days, but Hypervisor.framework patches are being built that allow QEMU to run an Arm build of Linux (and Windows) at native speed. https://twitter.com/jonmasters/status/1333555759737663489 The reality is that some of the drivers for the M1 chip will never arrive, but that if you want to run Linux (or Windows) Arm code then you can do so soon.

The issue for me is that I'd love to have an ARM laptop but I also love playing with the hardware and measuring it, trusting the hypervisor makes that a lot harder.

If I was a web developer I'd probably buy one (not a knock on web developers, if I was any good at it I'd do it), but I like playing in the grey area of the Venn diagram where microarchitecture, compilers, and kernels meet.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#94
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think these goals are exclusive. I am not sure about the M1, but the A13 and A14 are doing quite well in SPEC benchmarks. If they have compromised these scores, it’s not obvious to me.

I don't think they've compromised on SPEC performance at Apple, but I think they've chased it too hard at Intel. I'm sure I'd rather have more iTLB entries and more L1i cache than that third 512x512 FMA unit, if that's a trade that can be made.

Sorry I misinterpreted. Isn’t this a reflection of the primary markets for both companies, though? When Intel is trying to sell chips for HPC clusters and expensive workstations, impractical vector units can make sense. Clearly Apple is not bothered by that and has a more balanced micro architecture for more common use cases.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#95

For a counter argument, I don't think M1 is going to disrupt anything. Its a great performer for sure, but its locked to a proprietary and closed ecosystem controlled by a single entity. Its a new direction for Apple in their laptop architecture, and a solid first step, but the raw performance is not up to the fastest from AMD and Intel, and it lacks the ability to upgrade any of its components. I get it, its a lapto…

Don’t forget that M1X is coming in half year. It will be the only competition for Zen 3. I’m planning on waiting for that.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#96

The problem of Microsoft's failed attempt could be resumed in few points - They failed to provide a decent ecosystem - They wanted to carry on decades of legacy bits - They failed to provide fast hardware - All that resulted in a shy attempt with poor performance Apple didn't have all these issues, because it is in their culture, to provide software that works, without much bloat and with great hardware Them forbiddi…

> Apple didn't have all these issues, because it is in their culture, to provide software that works, without much bloat and with great hardware

It's funny you write this when the linked article specifically calls out Apple's software for a few "warts" and even agrees with Moorhead's and Gruber's take that the software is not yet fully baked.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#97

Since these keep floating up, I'm already exhausted with this specific rebuttal to Morehead's review: > As pointed out in John Gruber’s hard takedown of Moorhead’s piece, most of the problems he encountered were software problems, not M1 hardware issues. Morehead's allegiances and work are relevant biases, as are Gruber's. But Morehead's review wasn't of the M1 processor or architecture as a technology. It was a revi…

The pdf Jean-Louis Gassée links to in the 2nd paragraph is an excellent source for the evolution of Apple silicon up until the A12X:

> An Hungarian researcher by the name of Dezsö Sima offers an exhaustive history of Apple processors [1] that shows the transition to homegrown cores clearly started with the A6 device.

Extrapolate what a hypothetical 4+4 big.LITTLE A14X with 8 GPU cores would look like compared to the 2+4 A14 with 4 GPU cores and you don't need anything other than the progress of past Apple silicon SoCs to predict the characteristics of the M1.

Apple Silicon is outpacing the competition on all fronts. Qualcomm, Samsung, Intel, and AMD are not keeping up. Huawei has been knocked out of the competition, mostly by geopolitics as far as I can tell. The only question was the timing of the MacOS pivot. The A12X was good enough for a MacBook Air but a compromise for a MacBook Pro. The M1 is a no-compromise SoC for MacOS and the only question is the execution of the software transition; the focus of Gruber and Moorhead's spat.

[1] https://users.nik.uni-obuda.hu/sima/letoltes/Processor_famil...

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#98
post #75

I'm really confused about the M1 hype. From the published measurements it compares favourably to some mobile cpus. It doesn't look particularly good compared to existing high performance CPUs (either in peak perf or perf/$). If having more computing power was so transformative for you (certainly I consider fast computing transformative for me...)-- it was already available, you didn't need apple's permission to use i…

perf/W is what matters for laptops. I'm right now on an RTX 2070 Max-Q with 6/12 i7 Intel laptop, but I'm paying for it by it being heavy on my travels (especially the adapter for it taking up a big part of my suitcase).

I'll see in half year how Zen 3 compares to M1X as this is the first time I'm thinking of buying an Apple laptop for myself.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iPhone was a basically new form factor that over the course of the next 13 years (after trickling out to the lower priced Android phones), became the primary way that billions of people interact with technology. The M1 is a really good new processor. We've been doing really good new processors for the last couple decades. It's great to have more competition in the CPU space, which was seeming to stagnate, but not…

True, it’s not a new form factor. It doesn’t have that shiny “new thing” feeling. My Air looks like every other 2018+ air. What’s different is what you don’t see. Being able to code all day on battery and only using 18%. The CPU-core power to watt ratio is just unbelievable. I get it though, without the new form factor it lacks that defining moment. The moment came for me when I realized I wasn’t plugged in all day a…

It isn't just the "new thing" feeling, the smartphone form factor opened up new computing tasks that weren't really possible previously.

The M1 is a quantitative, not qualitative improvement. That's why it won't be as memorable.

The battery life is impressive, but it should be noted that you could have essentially the same experience with an older device by keeping the heavy computations on another machine -- remote desktop has always been a pain of course, but everybody loves SSH, right?

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#100

Where are some benchmarks comparing M1 to the best x86 processors from AMD? Since M1 is only 4 big cores maybe it would be fair to compare it to the 4 core 8 thread APUs and not crush the poor thing with an 8 core version. A1 is cool. Good for Apple, but it's not the computing miracle it's made out to be.

Who has the best CPU is irrelevant. What is the relevant is a single driving force that can deliver a coordinated response to Apple as a sinlge, inseparable package and not a shoebox of DIY parts. And the trouble is that the PC industry does not have such one.

Back in the 80s, it was IBM being the PC product company with a single product vision and being the trend setter (PC was hardware and software in one package designed to the make the most of each other), and the last failed attempt by IBM to lead the industry was the introduction of the microchannel architecture that no one wanted to licence due to high royalties. After that IBM gave up and became just another PC vendor. This is why we have the PC world as it has been for the last 30+ years (democracy) vs Apple (benevolent dictatorship).

Different players (Intel/AMD, Microsoft etc) have different stakes in the same game (or hold multiple pieces of the same puzzle – depending how one pleases to see it), and they may (or may not) have a busines incentive to play nicely with each other. One potential solution could be completely opening up the x86 architecture and giving everyone equal rights to the IP pool so the situation such as that one of the microchannel arch royalties does not come up again (i.e. Apple business units does not have to licence technology components from ot to each other). But then, again, a single driving force would still be required to deliver a single product. Perhaps, a new contender could then emerge.

And an interesting thought excercise is that one of the PC market deciding that it does not need a disruption, and it will remain content with the status quo and just soldier on. Which is not entirely implausible, either.

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