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Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

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Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#81

Post by greedo »

tyingq wrote: post #10

I do give Apple credit for a terrific design. It would be interesting to know how much of the performance is attributable to the smaller process size, on-package memory, etc. Things others will be able to replicate. It's not clear to me how much of it is true competitive advantage.

If you compare the A series chips Apple has been designing and compare them to the Snapdragon line, it's pretty clear that process size doesn't matter much; the Android phones have been trying to catch up for 7 generations and still fail.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#82

Post by temac »

naderkhalil wrote: post #11

> Will Microsoft now offer an official Windows 10 on ARM that can run on M1 Macs?...This could create trouble in the x86 PC world. Or will Microsoft, less committed to Windows than it is to its applications running everywhere, be content to see Office and more run (and generate revenue) on M1 Macs…and how will HP, Asus, Dell and others react? This is just the beginning of a new competitive layout. Could this be good…

Part of this reflection is weird.

Office is already running on Mac OS. M1 does not change anything in that regard.

So the only meaning that remains that would make sense is: how would HP, Asus, Dell, and others react if MS sold non-OEM licenses for Windows 10 for ARM.

Given for now I suspect they don't ship a lot of ARM laptops, that boils down to; would the M1 hardware be unfair competition.

I don't think so. MS x86 emulation is likely inferior to what Apple is doing for now, and I'm not sure if/how quickly they could make use of the M1 specific capabilities if they even wanted to. So at least the market won't shift quickly.

Will it shift slowly? Maybe.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#83

Post by nullc »

SulfurHexaFluri wrote: post #78
nullc wrote: post #75

I'm really confused about the M1 hype. From the published measurements it compares favourably to some mobile cpus. It doesn't look particularly good compared to existing high performance CPUs (either in peak perf or perf/$). If having more computing power was so transformative for you (certainly I consider fast computing transformative for me...)-- it was already available, you didn't need apple's permission to use i…

Its a massive improvement for non gaming laptop users. Most laptops in 2020 overheat constantly and are slow and loud as a result. The non M1 macbooks are next to unusable because they will burn your legs just running safari. Now they have reached a higher level of performance without even having a fan. Not hard to see how this is pretty huge news. The M1 Macbook air seems like the best laptop for the average person…

Laptops ... overheat? and people put up with this?

I'm earnestly surprised. (my only use for a laptop is as a remote terminal to an Actual Computer)

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#84

Post by samcheng »

bee_rider wrote: post #58
random5634 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually used whatever was pre iPod - I think it was a phone I loaded your favorite 20 songs on? Either way, for all the talking down of the iPod when it came out - for folks who wanted to listen to music it was total magic. I bought the first iPhone too, and didn’t have a clue that it wasn’t a good email device. I still use only windows / Linux server side - but this new “gimmick” of the M1 does have me interested

There were more than a couple MP3 players before the iPod. I had a cool little device from Sandisk with, I think, a 512MB solid state drive? I bet it's still kicking. That thing was way cooler than an iPod, it ran off a AA battery (I think) and it seemed pretty tough. I dropped it in a slushy road puddle and it just kept trucking. The iPod had good capacity but the spinning drive in there was a huge failure point.

I remember (at about the same time CDMA cell phones began getting popular) a standalone device with 32MB of storage, enough for like 20 songs or so. I think this was the one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_PMP300

Yes, rock solid, but it didn't hold a candle to the ipod, with its clicky scroll wheel that eased browsing, and its much larger HDD-based capacity.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#85

Post by Someone »

no_wizard wrote: post #48

If the M1 proves anything at all it’s that ARM 64 can and will be a performance chip not just a chip that is strictly intended for low power devices. I think that’s what the M1 will finally signal to all the other vendors, even though many have been saying this for a long time it’s proof in the wild that you can build desktop class ARM chips. My other thought is I wonder if this will open up the idea of vendors suppo…

I don’t think we know that for sure yet. Firstly, Apple has access to better chip technology. That gives them extra room and extra speed for free (actually, for a lot of dollars)

Secondly, AFAIK, nobody has attempted something similar with a different CPU. It is possible (but IMHO not likely), that a similar approach as the M1 (optimize a system , not individual chips), but with x64 (or x86, or MIPS, or RISC-V) would outperform the ARM version.

“Desktop-class” is a moving target, so if that were the case, the M1 wouldn’t be called desktop class anymore.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#86

Post by tambourine_man »

GregarianChild wrote: post #60
xenocratus wrote: post #5

> Now you got a big problem, because neither Intel, AMD, or Nvidia are going to license their intellectual property I keep seeing this line and wonder - "did people miss the news about Nvidia buying Arm?". Sure, there are still plenty of hurdles to pass until it's official, but take a look at the initial piece written by Nvidia about the acquisition: https://nvidianews.nvidia.com/news/nvidia-to-acquire-arm-for... Spe…

An interesting question here is: which of the big Arm customers are going to trust NVidia? As far as I understand, Arm's license requires licensees to give Arm detailed and advanced information about implementations (IIRC long before they are fabbed). This would give NVidia unprecedented insight into the competition's processors long before they hit the market. Will Samsung or Apple be happy about that? Will AMD be h…

I don’t know the legalese, but I'll bet you Apple won’t disclose future processors to Nvidea. They won’t disclose current ones.

Maybe licensing the ISA, which is what Apple is doing, is while different deal.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#87

Post by reader_mode »

jaimex2 wrote: post #59

Its only disruption if it disrupts. No one cares other than existing Apple users so I guess the only disruption will be the year of really fast and efficient teething issues they will be dealing with. We have one at work, I'd highly recommend waiting another year before getting one if you want to be productive.

If this was just a new CPU option with a performance boost over Intel (and significantly better thermals) but a compatibility mess - I would agree.

But MBP is 500$ price drop from the Intel variant. At these price points these laptops are a far better value proposition than the competition - Intel thermal performance and power consumption is just terrible, AMD is better but not present in anything premium - in terms of value for money - anyone looking at a premium 13 inch new laptop right now should IMO get one of these devices unless they have a really good reason not to (and admittedly there are plenty of those).

I really hate this situation because Apple is not the company I want to buy hardware from - they really suck on giving options, it's all "Apple know what's best for you" from them and their cult (for example I want a laptop with a touch screen, and ideally a 360 hinge, but there is no touch on MacOS because Apple). I would pay double for X1 Yoga with M1 class CPU. But right now Intel has dragged down the x86 laptop market down for soo long, and is still the only game in town for competition, it's just sad. AMD has good chips but no good devices. Modern ultra portable laptops are throttling, overheating and die instantly or have no work performance - it's just terrible tradeoffs for professionals.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#88

Post by Shivetya »

trynewideas wrote: post #26

Since these keep floating up, I'm already exhausted with this specific rebuttal to Morehead's review: > As pointed out in John Gruber’s hard takedown of Moorhead’s piece, most of the problems he encountered were software problems, not M1 hardware issues. Morehead's allegiances and work are relevant biases, as are Gruber's. But Morehead's review wasn't of the M1 processor or architecture as a technology. It was a revi…

I have only one issue with the M1; I do have a M1 mini to test/play with. Apple has to get developers to actually make apps for it. Their presentation debut of the M1 was notable for the fact how many developers they had on display you had to use Google to find out who they were!

Catalina obsoleted a lot of apps that many companies did not bother to update before or after which does not bode well for Apple Silicon. The hope to hold out for is that the performance is so good that people really want the systems and that brings out the developers.

Still, you can still get acceptable Windows Laptops with SSD/Etc for half the price of a MBA and that still means a lot. That you don't have to look twice at software to know if it runs is a big deal as well

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#89

Post by gamblor956 »

seppin wrote: post #74
gamblor956 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Benchmarks show that the M1 has better performance in only a few areas, and underperforms in others, and that's with Apple controlling literally every aspect of the hardware and software stack. It's great for an ARM system for a vertically oriented company, but it isn't sufficiently performative to be a significant threat to the competition. And that's before you consider all the non-technical crap Apple has thrown a…

In the 1 week + i've had my Macbook Air M1, it's across the board better. This thing is amazing

Yes, compared to your prior Macbook I'm sure it was a revelation. A programmer friend loves his new M1, but he's also been an Apple user for decades.

As a Windows user, testing out my friend's Macbook Air M1 was an underwhelming experience. I've had bigger performance boosts from adding more RAM or switching out HDs to SSDs, and a large part of the M1's performance "gains" can be attributed to the increased RAM on the systems currently featuring the M1.

Re: Apple Silicon M1 Disruption

#90

Post by hoytschermerhrn »

grecy wrote: post #64
untog wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Appreciating the iPhone is largely done in hindsight. I’m sorry but that’s definitely not true. Yes, there were a vocal minority of folks who said the iPhone was nothing special but the mass market response was huge and it was heralded as a huge deal by the vast majority. And to go back to my original point: there’s a difference between “this new invention allows you to do new things, but those things aren’t import…

Did you forget when the CEO of Microsoft laughed it off and said it was crap? [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U

I mean yeah, what else would the CEO of a competitor say?
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