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Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

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Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#351

Post by grey-area »

viraptor wrote: post #271
grey-area wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK, I have low-cost, fast, reliable, accessible money transfers. Basic bank accounts are free, and come with reliable free instant transfers to any other UK bank. That may not be reality in all countries, but it is in many. That's quite a high bar for rival payment methods to clear, but I think the main problem for corporate currencies like this will be rivalry from government issuers. Governments jealously gu…

> not tied to archaic concepts like sort codes and account numbers What are the problems with sort codes and account numbers? Are you after binding the account to your identity like Australian PayID?

I quite like the inversion of account control in systems like bitcoin to put the user in charge, though this is not without problems. It would be nice if uk banking systems were not stuck in this odd world of accounts tied to physical branches by a sort code, or indeed if we just moved to global identifiers that were portable between banks and owned by a person, not a gov or bank.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#352

Post by Reason077 »

pavlov wrote: post #118
tomp wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree. First of all, it's not "Europe" but rather "Euro-accounts" (so no cross-currency transfers). Also not that fast - don't work overnight, on the weekends, payments might take a day to arrive. I just checked - paying 10EUR from my UK account to the EUR area takes 2-4 days (I'd need to pay 15GBP for an "urgent" next- business -day transfer) (same rate as TransferWise) whereas if I want to send 10kEU…

The 250 GBP must be the exchange fee? If your account is in GBP and the destination is in EUR, the bank gets to charge you for the exchange. 2.5% is a typical rate. That's unfortunate, but is unrelated to the cost of transfer. Euro transfers have become instant and 24/7 thanks to the SEPA Instant Credit architecture: https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/sepa-insta... You can transfer up to 100k EUR in le…

> "If your account is in GBP and the destination is in EUR, the bank gets to charge you for the exchange. 2.5% is a typical rate."

2.5% is a rather expensive fee for a GBP-EUR transfer, especially on £10,000! Some banks offer as low as 0.4% (on top of the real mid-market rate), probably even less on large transfers.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#353

Post by ineedasername »

I don't think branding was really the issue here. Nore does the semantic weight of Diem vs. Libra really present a significant difference.

The problem has always been that it's an attempt to create an extra-governmental monetary system spearheaded by one of the largest tech companies in the world, in particular one that has a low level of social trust within both the political sphere and the libertarian-privacy-maximalist sphere that represents a cornerstone of crypto support.

For my own opinion, it doesn't matter how independent the oversight group may be from Facebook, it is still a Facebook initiative. Web standards, ostensibly independent, can be subverted by corporate interests. I have no trust that something as foundational to the world economy as a global monetary system would not also be subject to such interests at a fundamental level. Give the ACLU a seat, give the EFF a seat, find a dozen other non-corporate NGO's with a tangential interest in such a project, and I will still not be convinced that the system wouldn't be coopted a plutocratic oligarchy, if not outright kleptocracy. There would simply be too much power and money that would acrue to the "winners".

Whatever the future of crypto may be, it should be shoved forcefully away from such a direction, as well as any direction that makes it easy to facilitate criminal enterprise/money laundering. I freely admit that I don't have a solution that solves that range of problems though.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#354

Post by betwixthewires »

noelsusman wrote: post #151
fastball wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly like the argument that electric cars aren't actually any better because grid electricity is not currently very green in most parts of the world. The response of course being that as the grid gets greener (which it does every year), your car becomes greener also. If you have a gasoline car, it will be just as dirty in 20 years as it is today. Same thing with crypto. Yes, currently a lot of people buy a…

Why would it be good to free currency from government regulation? This is something I often see crypto advocates blow right past as if it's self explanatory, but I don't think it is. I like that the currency I use is managed by my government. Why should I want to switch?

So I hate to use the word I'm about to use, because of the modern connotations associated with it, but it does apply here.

There are billions of people who are abused by their government, who cannot trust their government, who's local money is debased by their government at a whim. You are privileged (there's that word) to have a government that you feel you can trust to control the value of your savings and your purchasing power. You do not see the value proposition because there is not much of one for you. Cryptocurrency doesn't exist for you. It exists for the people who do need it. And again, there are billions of people who need it, as much as half the world's population, possibly more.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#355

Post by aaronax »

oblio wrote: post #340
cloudinshape wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the government will not always be on your side, as 2020 demonstrated so well what many peoples outside the US have know from experience for decades.

Who do you resort to if you get defrauded through blockchain currencies... ? The Trusty Libertarian Neighborhood Watch?

The police, just like when you use cash for commerce and someone scams you.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#356

Post by betwixthewires »

oblio wrote: post #341
fbelzile wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but there are some people around the world that don't trust their governments. A use-case most people here would agree with is in the yellow economic circle in Hong Kong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_economic_circle Using a cryptocurrency is kind of like a technological band-aid to a political problem. Viewed through the lens as a form of peaceful protest against the government, it makes sen…

It's a very niche use case, though. Especially for creating a new global currency, used by everyone . And those people are probably screwed anyway, unfortunately for them. If a big government hates your guts... you're not going to make it. Might be safer for them to buy gold and just bolt.

It is easier to carry cryptocurrency than gold while fleeing from armed men.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#357

Post by ampdepolymerase »

baby wrote: post #323
ampdepolymerase wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a sufficiently large nation state orders the companies involved to deny or override a transaction, is the gossip protocol/blockchain useful at all in denying this? Or is this one of those mechanisms only used for keeping out low level/underfunded attackers?

The system is governed by an entity in Switzerland that must follow regulations, so such a scenario would not be an attack on the system (and thus not be in scope for consensus). That being said, I don't know much about laws and regulations so that's the extent of my understanding :)

Since one of the major audiences is emerging economies, what happens if one of them goes to war with another? Can one side get their superpower patrons to order Diem to freeze the accounts of the other?

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#358

Post by tipsysquid »

oblio wrote: post #340
cloudinshape wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the government will not always be on your side, as 2020 demonstrated so well what many peoples outside the US have know from experience for decades.

Who do you resort to if you get defrauded through blockchain currencies... ? The Trusty Libertarian Neighborhood Watch?

This is a valid concern, but what do you say to the current system that does not prevent all kinds of fraud. Perhaps even rampant with it. An easy search will show you that large regulated institutions participate and engage in fraud at all levels of their institution. Why is it that crypto must bear a larger burden of scrutiny against the status quo?

I believe that fraud is easier to identify and financially punish on public blockchains. Exchanges and other entities already have the ability to blacklist an address's assets and prevent them from off-ramping into fiat ms being used in future transfers. Businesses exist today to prevent payments of blacklisted assets. Compared to cash, blockchain based cryptoassets have more choice in enforcement against fraud. Also, crypto assets can be seen by all publicly on chain. It fairly easy to trace the work of cryptoasset fraudsters

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#359

Post by kergonath »

ByteWelder wrote: post #249
AsyncAwait wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the UK, I have low-cost, fast, reliable, accessible money transfers. Basic bank accounts are free, and come with reliable free instant transfers to any other UK bank. As an EU citizen living in the UK, it boggles my mind that "EU Faster Payments" was not implemented as part of the eurozone, if not the EU as a whole. As far as I know there's nothing technically preventing this, anyone has an insight into why it i…

It does exist, but it’s just taking a while for all banks to adopt it. Most/all Dutch banks have adopted it already. https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/sepa-insta...

In France banks charge a small fee for instant transfers (around €1). Some banks include free instant transfers in some of their offers, but usually not for their free accounts. I think it’s just a matter of time for it to become free and universal. Just like some banks use to make you pay to use their app or website (!).

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#360

Post by baby »

ampdepolymerase wrote: post #357
baby wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system is governed by an entity in Switzerland that must follow regulations, so such a scenario would not be an attack on the system (and thus not be in scope for consensus). That being said, I don't know much about laws and regulations so that's the extent of my understanding :)

Since one of the major audiences is emerging economies, what happens if one of them goes to war with another? Can one side get their superpower patrons to order Diem to freeze the accounts of the other?

I think that's a problem not just for Diem, but for current banks too. I remember reading about HSBC having to shut down Carrie Lam's accounts due to the US putting her a bunch of other government people in HK on some sanctioned list. I think HSBC actually did not freeze the accounts due to the consequences this would lead to for them and the Chinese market? It's unclear to me what happened and what will be the consequences.
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