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Winning back the Internet by building our own

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Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#21
post #18

I think gemini[0] is an interesting alternative to the regular internet. It's deliberately designed to avoid many of the things making the web terrible[1]. 0: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ 1: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.html

Thinking of Gemini as an "alternative to" the Internet means you think of the Web as "the Internet" and I thought that we'd be a bit more technically savvy than that here. Also, there's no real technical reason Gemini-the-protocol can't serve HTML, but that discussion is probably dead, too.

You're right, that was a a mischaracterization from my side. Thank you for the correction.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#22
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What are the missing pieces to get people using this? It's generally slow and it needs port forwarding to work correctly. Its design (whether you look at the java router, I2P, or the C++ one, i2pd) isn't really noob-friendly, either. That's more than enough to deter almost everyone from using it, it seems. >Is there a need? I'd say there's an ever-increasing need for anonymous, uncensorable platforms on the Internet…

>it needs port forwarding to work correctly What are you talking about? You need to put a proxy 127.0.0.1:4444 into your browser setup, but I wouldn't call it "port forwarding". Apart from that, you just install it and go to the eepsites. Upd: Indeed, you will also have to wait until the router finds enough peers. >What are the missing pieces to get people using this? I would say, it only needs more people to know ab…

A firewalled router will not work correctly (it will be slow as hell, basically, and you'll be leeching off the network instead of contributing to it). I appreciate the project as much as anyone interested in it, but let's be real here. On top of that, no router will work efficiently right after installation, firewalled or otherwise. You have to give it time to find other routers and make connections. It's just not suited for the immediateness almost everyone expects from everything nowadays. It needs a major revamp in order to increase its adoption.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#23

This article basically describes how the current internet was created.... why would this new internet end up any different? You can't expect every person to be skilled enough (and with the time and desire) to be their own network administrator, so someone will have to run the network for those people... and they will need to be compensated for that work... and some people will be really good at running that network,…

Well, the novelty of course. Everything has it's way. Radio, TV, telephony, the internet; all have gone through different phases of commercialization and exploitations.

It takes time for bureaucracy to take over. Think of the natural cycle of a startup becoming an enterprise, a niche shop becoming a large chain.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#24
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it needs port forwarding to work correctly What are you talking about? You need to put a proxy 127.0.0.1:4444 into your browser setup, but I wouldn't call it "port forwarding". Apart from that, you just install it and go to the eepsites. Upd: Indeed, you will also have to wait until the router finds enough peers. >What are the missing pieces to get people using this? I would say, it only needs more people to know ab…

A firewalled router will not work correctly (it will be slow as hell, basically, and you'll be leeching off the network instead of contributing to it). I appreciate the project as much as anyone interested in it, but let's be real here. On top of that, no router will work efficiently right after installation, firewalled or otherwise. You have to give it time to find other routers and make connections. It's just not s…

This is all true. However if the goal is convenience, speed and adoption, one could decrease the number of hops and it will work much faster.

> and you'll be leeching off the network instead of contributing to it

Does not look like a problem in Tor (despite one would expect otherwise, given that by default you do not contribute back unlike in i2p). You just need enough seeders.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#25
It's not just that corporations own a lot of the physical infrastructure. Another factor is that humans as a group tend to force other humans to commercialize what they do, even if they expressly don't want to do that and would rather publish it without ads, without paywalls, without subscriptions, etc.

We do a poor job of making it possible for people who create open source and people who create free content to get enough money out of that to give things away freely in service of their ideals. And after a while, people sometimes get fed up with working for free, seeing it benefit other people and not benefit them.

I complain a lot about that wrt to my own writing, but I'm not the only one. I've seen posts recently that complain about big companies using open source and/or open source providers being fed up with working for free.

Just a couple of things that come readily to mind:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25186890

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25032105

I find this maddening, especially when the idea of UBI is so popular. We actively punish people doing good works and tell them "Up yours. If you are an idealist, you can do it for free and find some other way to pay your bills." and then also say "We should just give money away to all the poor people simply for existing" while not actually making that a reality.

Talk of UBI makes me think of people I have known in the past who would make conditional promises, like "If I win the lottery, I will give you half." Somewhere along the way I figured out that "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" and to not trust "naked men offering you the shirt off their back."

People who actually want to make something happen will do the small thing in their power to accomplish today. People who make big promises based on long-shot bets (or on the idea that you need to make a big sacrifice before they will consider doing something for you -- and, no, it's not a stated as part of some kind of enforceable contract) are con artists, liars, manipulators and people wanting to be seen as "good guys" based on hot air without having to go through the pain and suffering typically required to do any real good in this world.

If you want a better world, pry open your wallet and give a dollar to Patreon for an independent artist or a $5 PayPal tip or something.

It's sort of a myth that big problems need big solutions. The antidote to a behemoth problem is often not some other equally powerful behemoth. It's often enough "little" solutions to weigh as much, so to speak.

Start investing in the small answers. They are easier to reach and support and more likely to be a real antidote.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#27
post #3

I2P [0] does not require a special infrastructure and provides strong anonymity on top of existing networks. [0] https://geti2p.net

> provides strong anonymity How does it compare to Tor?

https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/tor

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#28

I think gemini[0] is an interesting alternative to the regular internet. It's deliberately designed to avoid many of the things making the web terrible[1]. 0: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ 1: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.html

In throwing out the complexity of HTML, Gemini is also disposing of some markup that really helped screenreaders properly handle content. It would be a real shame if this "return to the good internet" left out the visually impaired. I agree with the goals of returning to a more bare-bones, text-heavy internet, but please, include the disabled in your vision from day one!

As a blind person, I dearly miss the textual Internet as it was. The original Internet -- the textual one -- was perfectly accessible. The extra markup added to HTML to help screen readers was added because the web stack had gotten too complex, not because it was too simple.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#30
The most difficult part is the backbone, not the software. The internet's power comes from its large scale and resilience, bypassing censorship and copyright is just a side effect. WiFi Dabba's [0] approach is quite interesting but I am not sure whether it will scale well in practice. Optical communications through free space generally requires line of sight and the bandwidth is low due to atmospheric losses. Broadcasting across oceans is another issue, especially when sovereignty is involved.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24790350

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