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Docker's Second Death

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Re: Docker's Second Death

#161

Post by simplecto »

nikisweeting wrote: post #132
nickjj wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a platform for running production code it might be dead or dying, but as an ecosystem and a development tool it will continue to live and probably thrive. Not everyone needs an over the top Kubernetes cluster in production. I'm plenty happy using Docker Compose in production and foresee myself continuing to use it as long as Docker maintains it. There's even a WIP issue on their roadmap[0] to rewrite Docker Comp…

I second this, we've been running Docker Compose in production for years and love it. It's massively simplified our production environment, and for a company that only serves 100,000-1,000,000 monthly hits it's the perfect middle ground. We've tried k8s several times and have always ended up going back because we didn't need the complexity. We even run compose v2.4 to retain the ability to set container memory/cpu li…

Exactly this here as well. I have helped setup a few successful SMEs with Docker, Compose, and some CI/CD best practices. They are running 7-figure businesses on the backend.

Re: Docker's Second Death

#162

Post by X-Istence »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #148
musicale wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Docker for Windows/Mac is the easiest way to use containers This is depressing. Even more depressing is that macOS still doesn't seem to have native containers. (Correct me if I'm wrong - perhaps the sandboxing system can be used as a container system including virtual network interfaces attached to process groups?) Docker images depend on Linux which means "Docker" on macOS runs in a Linux VM. Presumably docker fo…

> Even more depressing is that macOS still doesn't seem to have native containers. (Correct me if I'm wrong - perhaps the sandboxing system can be used as a container system including virtual network interfaces attached to process groups?) I always found that to be weird as well, since AFAIK Darwin does have jails, but it's only used on iOS for some reason (unless I've misunderstood what "jailbreaking" means).

You've misunderstood what the concept of jailbreaking means.

Jailbreaking in the sense it is used for breaking out of the Apple defined jail/walled garden.

Darwin does not have jails as FreeBSD does. And the software they have for limiting what an application can do is not in any way similar to what a jail is.

Re: Docker's Second Death

#163

Post by ampdepolymerase »

kbenson wrote: post #152
pjmlp wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the FOSS generation feels entitled to be paid while refusing to pay for tools, which leaves the typical enterprise customers as the only place one can make money with development tooling.

I wonder if a timed open source license would work? One in which code/features were automatically scheduled by the license to revert to GPL/BSD/whatever at a point a year or three in the future? I think that might sap some of the impetus to reinvent those features in a competing open source project (they can of course just copy them if they wait), and also might entice people to pay that wouldn't normally because the…

A number of databases uses the Business Source License (and its variants, usually including a non-compete clause). It acts as an option which vests (switches to a non-copyleft libre license) after n months. There is also the Polyform project but adoption has been low and their licenses are extremely controversial and unpopular.

Re: Docker's Second Death

#164

Post by X-Istence »

zapita wrote: post #47
andrewguenther wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to dig up old drama when "Docker" is in your Google search, but this article gives a peek: https://lwn.net/Articles/676831/

Every time there’s drama about Docker being mean, it’s almost always a Red Hat employee behind it... Like this article, and the OP blog post. Maybe just a coincidence.

The op has posted in this thread that they are no longer at Red Hat... so your comment is wrong.

Re: Docker's Second Death

#165

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

hiram112 wrote: post #154
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like explicit layers (transactions, I guess?) - so instead of every command making a layer, I could write FROM alpine STARTLAYER RUN apk update RUN apk upgrade RUN apk add foo ENDLAYER and end up with a 2-layer image (alpine + my stuff) rather than the 4-layer image that docker would produce today.

Isn't this the same? RUN apk update && apk upgrade && apk add foo

In the simple case, yes it is, but it scales poorly; consider ex. https://github.com/docker-library/postgres/blob/b9c080857b88... which is 112 lines run together like that to keep things in a single layer. This is pretty bad for readability. Also, as sibling comment notes, that only works for RUN commands, not other or mixed groups of commands.

Re: Docker's Second Death

#166

Post by zapita »

X-Istence wrote: post #164
zapita wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time there’s drama about Docker being mean, it’s almost always a Red Hat employee behind it... Like this article, and the OP blog post. Maybe just a coincidence.

The op has posted in this thread that they are no longer at Red Hat... so your comment is wrong.

I’m talking about the lwn article. The post is by an ex-RH employee and clearly influenced by their experience at RH.

Re: Docker's Second Death

#167

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

X-Istence wrote: post #162
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even more depressing is that macOS still doesn't seem to have native containers. (Correct me if I'm wrong - perhaps the sandboxing system can be used as a container system including virtual network interfaces attached to process groups?) I always found that to be weird as well, since AFAIK Darwin does have jails, but it's only used on iOS for some reason (unless I've misunderstood what "jailbreaking" means).

You've misunderstood what the concept of jailbreaking means. Jailbreaking in the sense it is used for breaking out of the Apple defined jail/walled garden. Darwin does not have jails as FreeBSD does. And the software they have for limiting what an application can do is not in any way similar to what a jail is.

Thanks for correcting me. That's surprising on its own merits, but at least it does explain no jails on desktop darwin...

Re: Docker's Second Death

#169

Post by Kwpolska »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #112
musicale wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Docker for Windows/Mac is the easiest way to use containers This is depressing. Even more depressing is that macOS still doesn't seem to have native containers. (Correct me if I'm wrong - perhaps the sandboxing system can be used as a container system including virtual network interfaces attached to process groups?) Docker images depend on Linux which means "Docker" on macOS runs in a Linux VM. Presumably docker fo…

> Docker images depend on Linux which means "Docker" on macOS runs in a Linux VM. Presumably docker for Windows could use WSL. WSL2 is also a VM. Docker is in truth Linux-only software, and "Docker" on any other platform is a polished interface for spinning up a Linux VM and running the real version of Docker there. I don't think this is such a bad thing. What non-Linux Docker really provides is a nice UI. On my Mac,…

Docker for Windows is capable of running Linux containers (on top of WSL2 or a Docker-specific Hyper-V VM), and it can also run Windows containers. You can only pick one of those, but if you want to containerize Windows software, Docker can do this. (If you’re on Windows 10 Home, only the WSL2 backend is available.)

Re: Docker's Second Death

#170

Post by priyanshuraj »

Wonderfully written article. I like how it draws the distinction between Docker still possibly surviving in dev and ci/cd pipelines and Docker definitely being dead in production.

I wonder though if something simpler than Docker would arrive for dev and ci/cd and make Docker obsolete there too.

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