Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra • Hacker News Board

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#141

Post by grishka » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 5:04 PM UTC

davidgerard wrote: post #111

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #43

The whole “unbanked” thing is really unconvincing, because there's no way Libra/Diem will be usable for people who don't have identity documents and the evidence needed for KYC/AML forms, and that excludes most unbanked people. As for international money transfers: TransferWise and the like are already providing better solutions in that space without forcing you to use Facebook Coins. Now you might say that mostly ca…

The key to this is the part of the White Paper that notes they'll need to create a digital identity standard. This is something that's been widely advocated. But imagine a private company creating one, particularly one with Facebook's track record. Imagine having to use Facebook to access any money - not just Diem Dollars. (my book on Facebook's Libra/Diem plan goes into this, particularly ch 8 on privacy)

> Imagine having to use Facebook to access any money - not just Diems.

I don't think this can happen in practice. For any such system to work at all, the vast majority of the entire society needs to be using it and be satisfied with it, and then there'll always be cash anyway for which there can't be access control enforced by any one entity.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#142

Post by deevolution » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #139

colordrops wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is there still so much of ignorance over cryptocurrency this far along after its inception? Just because you buy and sell gold with major currencies doesn't mean gold is regulated. Crypto isn't much different. If you can get it anonymously, you can move it anywhere you want as long as you stay on the blockchain. Once you leave the blockchain, you aren't dealing with crypto anymore. Once you sell gold you aren't d…

> If you can get it anonymously, you can move it anywhere you want as long as you stay on the blockchain Q: Is this fundamentally different to having a suitcase full of cash?

A suitcase full of cash is much more difficult to transport risk-free compared to bitcoin.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#143

Post by mateuszf » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

camgunz wrote: post #121

The core feature of any cryptocurrency is "money w/o state regulation", but when you're talking about selling it for any major currency (Dollars, Euros, Sterling, Yen, RMB) guess what, you're regulated. There is no way around this, regulators are wise (more than wise, hypervigilant) to it. As a result, this stuff is just cumbersome currency that roasts the planet. No thank you.

> The core feature of any cryptocurrency is "money w/o state regulation", but when you're talking about selling it for any major currency (Dollars, Euros, Sterling, Yen, RMB) guess what, you're regulated.

Depends on the regulation type we're talking about. Yes, state may require KYC, AML, and taxes, but in case of bitcoin they can't regulate the inflation.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#144

Post by Heliosmaster » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #139

colordrops wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is there still so much of ignorance over cryptocurrency this far along after its inception? Just because you buy and sell gold with major currencies doesn't mean gold is regulated. Crypto isn't much different. If you can get it anonymously, you can move it anywhere you want as long as you stay on the blockchain. Once you leave the blockchain, you aren't dealing with crypto anymore. Once you sell gold you aren't d…

> If you can get it anonymously, you can move it anywhere you want as long as you stay on the blockchain Q: Is this fundamentally different to having a suitcase full of cash?

Not really, and that is precisely one of the point for crypto advocates. To be used as "virtual" (just non physical) cash, easier to manage.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#145

Post by Mxs2000 » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #139

colordrops wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is there still so much of ignorance over cryptocurrency this far along after its inception? Just because you buy and sell gold with major currencies doesn't mean gold is regulated. Crypto isn't much different. If you can get it anonymously, you can move it anywhere you want as long as you stay on the blockchain. Once you leave the blockchain, you aren't dealing with crypto anymore. Once you sell gold you aren't d…

> If you can get it anonymously, you can move it anywhere you want as long as you stay on the blockchain Q: Is this fundamentally different to having a suitcase full of cash?

I’ve heard it’s easier to travel conspicuously and less risky than traveling with suitcases of cash.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#146

Post by alvarosevilla95 » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #139

colordrops wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is there still so much of ignorance over cryptocurrency this far along after its inception? Just because you buy and sell gold with major currencies doesn't mean gold is regulated. Crypto isn't much different. If you can get it anonymously, you can move it anywhere you want as long as you stay on the blockchain. Once you leave the blockchain, you aren't dealing with crypto anymore. Once you sell gold you aren't d…

> If you can get it anonymously, you can move it anywhere you want as long as you stay on the blockchain Q: Is this fundamentally different to having a suitcase full of cash?

No, but only if your suitcase will only open if unlocked by a cryptographically secure key and no one can open it through other methods. They can't steal the suitcase itself either. And you can instantly teleport the contents of your suitcase to an equivalent suitcase held by any other individual on the planet. And third parties can't arbitrarily devalue the contents of your suitcase by printing more of it.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#147

Post by camgunz » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #128

camgunz wrote: post #121

The core feature of any cryptocurrency is "money w/o state regulation", but when you're talking about selling it for any major currency (Dollars, Euros, Sterling, Yen, RMB) guess what, you're regulated. There is no way around this, regulators are wise (more than wise, hypervigilant) to it. As a result, this stuff is just cumbersome currency that roasts the planet. No thank you.

How is there still so much of ignorance over cryptocurrency this far along after its inception? Just because you buy and sell gold with major currencies doesn't mean gold is regulated. Crypto isn't much different. If you can get it anonymously, you can move it anywhere you want as long as you stay on the blockchain. Once you leave the blockchain, you aren't dealing with crypto anymore. Once you sell gold you aren't d…

You're talking about a commodity, not a currency. No one walks around with gold nuggets (or jugs of milk, or bales of wheat) in their pocket because our economy doesn't use the barter system.

The difference between cryptocurrencies and other commodities is that other commodities have intrinsic worth. You can drink milk, you can eat wheat. You can't do anything with cryptocurrency, it's just a long, meaningless number.

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#148

Post by Heliosmaster » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #138

colordrops wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is there still so much of ignorance over cryptocurrency this far along after its inception? Just because you buy and sell gold with major currencies doesn't mean gold is regulated. Crypto isn't much different. If you can get it anonymously, you can move it anywhere you want as long as you stay on the blockchain. Once you leave the blockchain, you aren't dealing with crypto anymore. Once you sell gold you aren't d…

He's right about roasting the planet though. Scarcity without computational (and literal) power is necessary. Maybe if we could use the inherent incalculability of the three-body problem as the basis for a cryptocurrency. You'd need to observe the universe to "find" astrocoins. It would be Astrology on steroids. Of course that leaves out verifiability, encryption, anonymous identity yet ownership. What if you (someho…

https://primecoin.io/ to compute Prime Numbers

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#149

Post by notahacker » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #43

The whole “unbanked” thing is really unconvincing, because there's no way Libra/Diem will be usable for people who don't have identity documents and the evidence needed for KYC/AML forms, and that excludes most unbanked people. As for international money transfers: TransferWise and the like are already providing better solutions in that space without forcing you to use Facebook Coins. Now you might say that mostly ca…

Even if those hurdles could be crossed, there's the hurdle of actually converting the unbanked to use their service. Unbanked people are unbanked because it's not profitable for local banks to convert them to customers, generally because they live in cash economies and don't have very much of it, and WU/Moneygram or the hawala service is difficult to beat on the last mile of remittances. M-PESA filled some gaps because it used a existing network of mobile phone stores and people's confidence in the value of their dumbphone credit in local currency. All rely heavily on shops in villages to attract and serve customers.

But Diem doesn't have any advantages over any of these entities: it's a foreign foundation with no local infrastructure to help people spend their cash and no local knowledge talking about immutable ledgers and cash equivalent reserves, as if the reason the unbanked were unbanked is because the local banks don't write whitepapers rather than because exchanging cash in developing world villages is a very expensive problem to solve relative to the size of the transactions they unbanked might like to make

Re: Diem – A rebrand of Facebook’s Libra

#150

Post by mateuszf » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #139

colordrops wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is there still so much of ignorance over cryptocurrency this far along after its inception? Just because you buy and sell gold with major currencies doesn't mean gold is regulated. Crypto isn't much different. If you can get it anonymously, you can move it anywhere you want as long as you stay on the blockchain. Once you leave the blockchain, you aren't dealing with crypto anymore. Once you sell gold you aren't d…

> If you can get it anonymously, you can move it anywhere you want as long as you stay on the blockchain Q: Is this fundamentally different to having a suitcase full of cash?

> Q: Is this fundamentally different to having a suitcase full of cash?

Yes, government can't print bitcoin. If you store cash - in the long term you will lose buying power. If bitcoin gets adopted as a store of value - nobody will be able to print it at will.