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More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

theguardian.com

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Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#201
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In her group email she also asked other employees to stop working in any other related project. I mean, I don't see how google could NOT terminate her after such an event. I am in a nation with extremly strong worker protection law but that action alone would be enough to fire you on the spot.

Reading the comments here I feel like HN lives in a completely parallel universe. The number of employees who have the ability to threaten to quit and not immediately get fired are very very few. Even at the executive level you can't just make ultimatums for your employment and expect that they won't consider just firing you. Even if you're the representative of a union speaking on behalf of thousands of employees yo…

The reality is that the research organizations at big tech companies have always been a very different kind of labor relationship than typical rank-and-file business units. Many of the senior or otherwise high-profile researchers at FAANG companies would otherwise be professors or academics, in positions where there is essentially unbridled academic freedom and no expectation of separating personal convictions and principles from the academic environment.

Google lured many of these researchers away from academic roles, with the tacit promise that they would be able to continue their research - and at times political - endeavors relatively unencumbered. Google has built a research empire on this promise, which has been responsible in part for their continued dominance in various markets.

My point here is that these researchers have a lot of leverage. Advocating for action within an organization, counter to the current immediate goals of management, is only taboo (and thus “fireable”) in most companies because workers have almost no leverage, generally speaking. Not because it’s some inherently “bad” thing. If Google becomes seen as a place that fires researchers for advocating for their beliefs, especially in a capacity that they’ve been explicitly hired to do, then I think a lot of researchers would - and rightly should - reconsider whether such an environment is consistent with their values as academics and, often times, activists. Google’s research group is enormously valuable to the company, and there’s only so much reputational damage of this nature the organization can sustain before academics decide to take their talents elsewhere.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#202
post #195
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your job is an ethicist, your company hires you to demonstrate that they are ethical. If they truly aren't then you either have to sacrifice your integrity or kick up a fuss. Additionally once her integrity is lost she loses market value. Her market (whitewashing/signaling of ethical behavior of a large company) is an odd one but she behaved it the most rational manner given the circumstances. Moreover by kicking…

My comment was about the 1200 workers who condemned the firing. There have been similar recent public statements such as MS workers about use of AI for the pentagon, FB employees on content, etc.. Simply I mean the best way to support a wrongfully ousted ethicist would be to leave yourself, rather than keep getting paid by the execs who wronged her. The work of AI ethics - especially in the vein of Timnit Gebru - is…

>Simply I mean the best way to support a wrongfully ousted ethicist would be to leave yourself

What are you basing this on? I can think of at least one example where this pressure actually worked (caused google management to reverse course). ICE contracts, I think?

Your strategy would seem to be more in Google management's favor - clearing out all the people who might kick up a fuss when they try to engage in unethical behavior.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you don’t do what your boss says at a job, even if you disagree, your boss can fire you, and this is good. But if you tell your boss that they should do something or you’ll quit, this is bad and makes you unemployable. You realize that this is just an argument that whoever is in a position of authority over you is right by virtue of having that authority?

> So if you don’t do what your boss says at a job, even if you disagree, your boss can fire you, and this is good. Gonna take a quick guess you're still in undergrad. Yes, this is literally how employment works. Your future boss's job will be to use your labor efficiently for the company. You may disagree with your boss on an assignment, in which case it would be wise to schedule some time and professionally discuss…

Just because that is how the world works, doesn’t mean it has to be a that way (or should be that way).

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just another example of the “participation culture” that modern parenting and social media have made commonplace. Who needs to do anything real when you can just upvote or retweet? You get the same sort of participation trophy that you’ve been taught to aim for since childhood.

What’s the opposite of “participation culture”? Not participating? I feel like signing a letter of protest is doing something “real”. It’s communicating to leadership of the company that you have concerns about what has transpired. It’s not nothing.

Parent post is probably referring to the relatively new phenomena of issuing "participation prizes" instead of prizes for winning, this insulating the participants who "lost" from the stigma associated with being a "loser".

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at trade unions, you see that walkouts, work slow downs and temporary strikes are commonly used. The goal is never to destroy the company but to simply force them to the bargaining table by reminding them of the economic power workers provide. A total strike or worse a union quitting a company all together is a nuclear option.

It may work with physical work, but at FANG companies software engineers will just make up for it on the weekends at nights. Stack ranking works wonderfully at making engineers to compete in working as much as they can (which is not a bad thing, just how the system works).

Stack ranking causes political backstabbers to rise to the top and filters out the conscientious. It probably functions well enough in companies that are fundamentally extractive, but it will put a company that is supposed to innovate on a self destructive spiral.

Microsoft improved a lot ever since it dumped stack ranking.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#206
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this view, though, is imagine if you're in that situation, and you leave, only to be replaced with someone with more amoral views. It's the opposite of a solution imo.

At the risk of invoking Godwin's law....this is exactly Rodolf Hoss' defense at the Nuremberg trails: "Don’t you see, we SS men were not supposed to think about these things; ... somebody else would have done just as well if I hadn’t" https://www.facinghistory.org/holocaust-and-human-behavior/c... I would be extremely cauticous about using the argument of "well If I don't do it, someone else will".

I really hope someone at Google's PR department is paying attention to comparisons like these, and that they realize there are consequences to allowing Google's brand to get dragged through the mud by their relentless antisocial behavior.

Google went from being a tech darling where their "Don't be evil" motto was taken seriously to "Google employees are like Nazis".

Hope someone in authority at Google is doing some serious soul searching as to why this might be.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#207
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the opposite of “participation culture”? Not participating? I feel like signing a letter of protest is doing something “real”. It’s communicating to leadership of the company that you have concerns about what has transpired. It’s not nothing.

Ayn Rand's following, probably.

Is there an equivalent to Godwin's Law for Ayn Rand?

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#208

It's sort of meta but... The article repeatedly mentions Gebru's race and sex and includes it for the only Google employee quoted. Why does that matter? Is she more reliable because of her skin colour? Is he less reliable because of his genitals? The cynic in me feels like I'm being subtly trolled. Or maybe I'm just oversensitive? :)

I think they're trying to make out it's racial and she was slienced on pointing out a racial issue.

It just seems to be conflating so many things: personal racism against her (which I see no evidence of) and institutional racism (which is some of what she researches but then her and his race are irrelevant). That plus sexism. Plus academic freedom and employee-employer relations and PR.

In the end, it's a mess of nothings, rather and 1 solid something imho...

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"that modern parenting" Back in my days we would chop off heads and assisinate politicans! These kids can't do anything right!

> Back in my days we would chop off heads and assisinate politicans! back in my days, we would unionize and block the factories until the company died or we got what we wanted

The peak of this behavior led to a small war between coal miners and a sheriff and a small airforce that bombed the strikers that only ended when Warren Harding threatened to send in the military.

They ultimately lost but what happened there led to the sympathetic growth of the AFL and CIO and ultimately to the New Deal and the rise of the middle class.

They say history doesn't repeat but it rhymes. I wouldn't be surprised if the next series of pitched struggles between American owners and labor result in extreme violence also, before giving way to a system that is slightly more egalitarian.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#210
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may work with physical work, but at FANG companies software engineers will just make up for it on the weekends at nights. Stack ranking works wonderfully at making engineers to compete in working as much as they can (which is not a bad thing, just how the system works).

Stack ranking causes political backstabbers to rise to the top and filters out the conscientious. It probably functions well enough in companies that are fundamentally extractive, but it will put a company that is supposed to innovate on a self destructive spiral. Microsoft improved a lot ever since it dumped stack ranking.

Microsoft was using per team stack ranking, Google global stack ranking. That's a huge difference I think. The problem is that the managers go to the promotion commitees and started exchanging promotions with eachother, so the system that was working before doesn't work anymore.
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