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We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

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Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed; but this isn't just a Google problem. Seems to me like a lot of SF (and SF-inspired) "big tech" wants to be known for their "wokeness"[1], which leads to hires like Timnit and other "politically-outspoken" people, which in turn leads to situations like this, James Damore, and other individuals/situations that amount to workplace political activism. I am wholly uncomfortable with any discussion of politics in…

The performative sense could have to do with a lack of personal connection to it. It’s a frustration for something not wholly understood, specially when the “performative” express strong conviction. I’m trying to understand how one could imagine someone would risk imprisonment, bodily injury, or death just for performance.

Exaggerating risk of “imprisonment, bodily injury, or death” is a hallmark of the “woke”.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#632

> An AI model trained on vast swaths of the internet won’t be attuned to the nuances of this vocabulary and won’t produce or interpret language in line with these new cultural norms. As those become pervasive cultural norms, why would the model not adapt to include them?

They want to be able to control the model before the norms become pervasive.

Like how, with activism, you can pressure the NYT into using jargon like “Latinx” when no one outside small progressive circles uses them.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#633
post #391

Here's why I have absolutely no sympathy for Google in this situation. They hired Gebru as a professional thorn in their side. "Come up in here and be a pain in the ass! Tell us what we're doing wrong!", they said. "We're Enlightened Corporate America, after all!" She is a chess piece in the game of Wokeness Street Cred. She then proceeded to do the job she was hired for, and now they're all "Hey lady, Here At Google…

> That said, as a manager, I would have "accepted her resignation" and/or fired her without hesitation. Her manager, however, apparently would not have: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3469738016467233... Something is seriously wrong, BTW, when a manager has to find out from their own ex-employee that that employee has been fired by the manager’s manager, who, while not informing the manager, has sent a m…

It’s not clear that’s how they found out. The post just says that they were stunned by “what happened”.

If someone offers their resignation to their skip manager or some other manager in their chain, it’s not surprising that they might accept it without consulting that employee’s manager.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, as a manager, I would have "accepted her resignation" and/or fired her without hesitation. Her manager, however, apparently would not have: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3469738016467233... Something is seriously wrong, BTW, when a manager has to find out from their own ex-employee that that employee has been fired by the manager’s manager, who, while not informing the manager, has sent a m…

It’s not clear that’s how they found out. The post just says that they were stunned by “what happened”. If someone offers their resignation to their skip manager or some other manager in their chain, it’s not surprising that they might accept it without consulting that employee’s manager.

> It’s not clear that’s how they found out.

Yeah, that bit wasn't from the managers FB post but elsewhere.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. And the research raised an important point which was worth discussing. But it seems, based on the totality of the information, that Google received an ultimatum demanding that it take particular action with respect to the issue. That’s going beyond an ethics researcher’s role.

The ultimatum was about the review process and not the paper per se. I do think the ultimatum was a bad idea, but I don’t think I’d fire an employee over one. Id just tell them no, on their demand. That said a blind internal review process that apparently blocked a paper for the first time in Googles history probably deserves more explanation than simply “we will take your resignation”.

They didn't fire her. She said "I will quit if you don't meet these demands" and they were unwilling to meet the demands.

If she didn't threaten to quit, I can't imagine they would've done anything other than tell her no. But she gave them an ultimatum and they chose which side they would be on.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed; but this isn't just a Google problem. Seems to me like a lot of SF (and SF-inspired) "big tech" wants to be known for their "wokeness"[1], which leads to hires like Timnit and other "politically-outspoken" people, which in turn leads to situations like this, James Damore, and other individuals/situations that amount to workplace political activism. I am wholly uncomfortable with any discussion of politics in…

The problem here is that AI and race now intersect in non trivial ways. It’s like having privacy as political discourse when you are scanning emails for marketing purposes. There’s a line at which not having the discussion is equivalent to taking a political stance.

I think you are confusing her previous work (which was on race) and the work this article is discussing.

This research paper in question was about AI and natural language processing and its carbon footprint and all that. Nothing to do with race or political agenda.

Google also has done a ton of work on creating renewable datacenters, so I think they are definitely onboard with making tech have less of a carbon footprint.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where google requested she retract her paper to include information that was flattering to google and Google thought was relevant?

They just demanded that she retract it. No opportunity to adjust it to include the additional information (there would be ample time to do this between review and the camera-ready).

In the article it says the co-author specifically requested the paper not be published because they "didn’t want such an early draft circulating online". Sounds like Timnit might have jumped the gun a bit and it wasn't just google that thought it wasn't ready.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon emissions arguments tend to ignore the value of what's being done as well. BERT and other transformers were meaningful experiments that were valuable in furthering a major research direction and enabling more effective consumer and business applications. In that sense, it's like any other company doing R&D - of course energy will be used and of course there will be some inefficiencies. I think it's quite misle…

Still though, it’s good that these numbers are brought into light, along with other “hidden” costs in the IT industry. Otherwise we’ll just spiral into whataboutism and “my own carbon footprint is totally fine, because somewhere out there a model is doing worse things”. It also goes to show the sheer scale of this research field (arguably in a double-edges sword way) if the general public was still thinking “nerds in…

I think we all know that there is a carbon footprint cost to what we do. Its the reason google has been working on renewable energy datacenters for so long:

https://www.google.com/about/datacenters/renewable/

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#639
post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nadella famously did it at Microsoft, but I don’t know exactly how. It would be fascinating to read a book on just that topic.

Question for Microsoft employees: does it feel as if Satya changed the internal work culture at MS or has it been more about public perception and less about on the ground culture change?

IMO, he really did, but it was ripe for a change in any case - what we needed was leadership that realized the need for it, and would clearly and unambiguously greenlight the critical mass of proponents on lower managerial levels (where those things actually get done); Satya provided exactly that. But I don't know whether this is translatable to, or even applicable to, Google.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm not understanding the argument. But why do people think she was let go? My understanding is she wrote a paper critical of certain aspects of Google's business. They asked her to retract it for revisions because they didn't think it was fair to Google which believed it had made advancements relevant to her critiques. She thought this review was unfair so she wrote an unprofessional message to an internal gro…

> Do you believe she was let go because she was black or female? Possibly. I do think it is likely that she isn't fired if she was a white male. In my experience, people have more patience with people who are in their "in-group". This goes beyond race/gender -- just look at sports fandom for an example. Isn't it odd that players for the team you cheer for can do no wrong, but as soon as they're traded then they start…

> Possibly. I do think it is likely that she isn't fired if she was a white male. In my experience, people have more patience with people who are in their "in-group". This goes beyond race/gender -- just look at sports fandom for an example. Isn't it odd that players for the team you cheer for can do no wrong, but as soon as they're traded then they start doing a bunch of bad stuff, even the stuff they did while on your team actually now looks kind of bad. In the tech industry role/team/company/race/gender are probably the biggest in-group delineations.

I think you're right about her not being in the in-group. But the in-group had nothing to do with race or gender but instead was about whether or not she played ball with Google executives. It seems like she was a team player with regards to people she worked with directly in AI ethics research, but definitely was not a corporate team player.

I think in this specific circumstance a white male would have been easier to fire. It's a much worse look to fire a woman of color investigating AI ethics (A lot of which is revolves around racial and gender bias) than a white male.

> Yes they do. The most common ultimatum is given before employment, where candidates will often give a minimum salary/benefits they will take for the job. I've seen and even been involved in these negotiations where a candidate states that they will not go below this offer, period. And then we counter with a number below that but provide some other incentive we think may counter it.

When I used the word ultimatum I wasn't referring to pre-employment salary negotiations, which this most certainly wasn't.

> There are other ultimatums I've seen in the workplace. For example, "I can't work with XYZ or I'm leaving the team". I don't think I've ever seen the response come back as, "good luck finding a new team". It's always been to dive deeper into the relationship.

I think there is a subtle difference between delivering an ultimatum and communicating the minimum needs for a job. "You need to stop requiring me to travel or I quit" will be treated very differently by most employers than "I talked with my wife, and due to us having a new born, I don't I think I can fit travel into my life any longer. Is there any way to continue this job without travel?". Judging by her generally assertive nature (which is a valuable asset in a researcher and activist, but can be a liability when navigating corporate America) and the other message she sent out to her co-workers I imagine her email was phrased more like the former than the latter.

> I can imagine it being listed as a firing offense in some handbook. I can also imagine that others who have written damning emails have gotten away with no more than a slap on the wrist (or less).

Even without an employee handbook, this is incredibly unprofessional behavior. Telling co-workers to stop doing certain types of work and apply external pressure to your employer seems unfathomable to me? If I was really angry or drunk and sent out a message like that I would be afraid of losing my job. If I also submitted my resignation at the same time I would just assume they would accept it unless they had a very important reason they couldn't let me go.

I think if she had just submitted her resignation/ultimatum letter or just sent out that withering letter she'd still be employed at Google. I've seen two people act that unprofessional and one was immediately fired and the other was told "This is you're first and second strike. You think we can't replace you. We can, and if you do this again we will." And those unprofessional outbursts weren't in writing, they were just people being unprofessional because they were stressed and frustrated.

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