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72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

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Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#381

Post by acdha »

gnu8 wrote: post #317
acdha wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ll note that I mentioned a proxy. That’s why: you need to force all traffic through a proxy you control or you’re just hoping that a client doesn’t use hard-coded IPs or an outside API of some source. If your network allows the client to send traffic to port 443 anywhere, any blocking is on the honor system.

My question here is how are you going to install your root certificate on a $300 smart TV? Or, if that is not required because the TV does not verify DoH certificates, how bad is that for security (which we already know is awful on these devices)?

This comes back to the core decision: do you care about controlling the network enough to block access? If the device can't be managed / is no longer supported the safest choice is not to allow it online at all. Different people will have different risk tolerances – it might make sense to put, say, a remote-control power switch on an IoT no-man's land network but if it has access to personal information or cameras/microphones it's not unreasonable to say it should just be blocked unless you're actively using those features.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#382

Post by shawnz »

mrmanner wrote: post #377
shawnz wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is a pretty user-hostile attitude and I suspect you probably wouldn't really love it if every network operator was doing that kind of thing.

I read that as LanternLight83 is both the network operator and the user in this case, and if so it’s not really a problem. I would also love to MitM myself in some cases, mostly because it’d be interesting to see what’s going on.

Yes, but my point is that if you feel it's justified for your own network then you ought to expect every other network operator will feel that way about their network too.

So before applying that mentality, it would be wise to consider what your experience would be like if all your neighbours, friends, colleagues etc also did that on their networks.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#383

Post by samoa42 »

jsnell wrote: post #144
willis936 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand the downvotes. Google has a long history of killing projects. Of all the public DNS to trust, why does anyone have confidence in Google? Because they’re big? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 1500 times...

Because you made a zero effort joke that has been worn to the absolute bone by people repeating it thousands of times per year in HN comments, rather than at least putting in a bit of thought as to what the risk is for this service. Here's a quick attempt: Track record: 8888 has been running for more than ten years. Popularity: It appears to be incredibly widely used; e.g. a research paper from 2013 claimed it was se…

probably a win-win situation with google wanting to ensure users can use google services (foremost doubleclick) and users wanting to avoid crappy or censored isp resolvers.

but gog not using the harvested data seems somewhat unbelivable

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#384

Post by mindslight »

acdha wrote: post #299
mindslight wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your technical description doesn't really respond to the meat of the critique of DoH, which is that it prevents the technique described in this article - transparent proxying for all traffic of a certain service, in this case DNS. The problem is that your relationship with your network devices is logically the same as a totalitarian country's/company's relationship with their citizens/users. So any protocol that prev…

My point was simply that DNS was never an effective measure. Corporate operators don’t need it since they can configure proxies and install endpoint monitoring, but the people building untrustworthy IoT devices or malware can’t be relied upon to cooperate. I agree that the core problem here is blocking egress entirely – and that’d be a good area for home routers to add UI polish so you could easily allow your TV to h…

Well DNS has been a pragmatic measure for quite some time. I've definitely seen jailbreaks of embedded devices that start off by MITMing DNS to proxy all traffic. DoH is changing that, and I can see how that's annoying.

> hit Samsung.com if there’s an update you need

Why would you need an update? Updates are mainly necessary for security, which you don't need if the device isn't on the Internet. If the device doesn't have all the features you expect out of the box, return it within the return period. There's a small corner case where an update could carry significantly increased functionality, but it seems easier to ad-hoc address that down the line rather than plan for it. Carelessly doing updates is a good way to break your device.

> Unfortunately that’s going to be a losing game for many devices

I don't see how it's a losing game if you play it correctly. Fine grained policing of types of traffic is a losing game, but wholesale denying transit isn't. There is little difference between my network of tp-link bulbs and a local modbus network.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#385

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

shawnz wrote: post #382
mrmanner wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that as LanternLight83 is both the network operator and the user in this case, and if so it’s not really a problem. I would also love to MitM myself in some cases, mostly because it’d be interesting to see what’s going on.

Yes, but my point is that if you feel it's justified for your own network then you ought to expect every other network operator will feel that way about their network too. So before applying that mentality, it would be wise to consider what your experience would be like if all your neighbours, friends, colleagues etc also did that on their networks.

I have no problem with that: if my workplace MITMs traffic, I’ll use my cellphone connection and a personal laptop for sensitive data. If a friend’s house mitms traffic, same deal.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#386

Post by cptskippy »

caivvoacmh wrote: post #280
bjelkeman-again wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe I buy TVs aimed at office dashboard displays etc. No “Smart TV” with crappy software in my home.

Can you share what “dashboard display” you’re buying snd what’s the quality like compared to an actual TV? I just want a high quality screen ~55-65” to use with an AppleTV. I’m considering an LG oled cx because I don’t want android and will not use any of its features other than sound and display. I wish there was an oled display only for this use-case :(

I have two LG TVs,one being a C8, neither is hooked up to the internet and they both work just fine with CEC enabled HDMI devices.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#387

Post by rovr138 »

nitrogen wrote: post #320
cpuguy83 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one exception... it is really convenient to be able to use my phone to control the tv, even if it is only to change inputs. And that's how they get you.

There's no reason any phone shouldn't be able to control any TV, except that IR ports are no longer popular on handheld devices. Back in the 90s there were wristwatches that could control any TV.

Bluetooth is a good alternative in this case.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#388

Post by RedComet »

8ytecoder wrote: post #330
stingraycharles wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own several smart TVs but use none of the smart functionality. They don’t even have internet. TV makers are horrible software developers, for the same reasons that mobile manufacturers were horrible mobile OS developers until Android came along. We have similar solutions for televisions in the form of Apple TV and Chromecast. I honestly feel I’m wasting my money when I’m buying a smart TV these days, but you just n…

Both LG webOS and Sony Android TV come across as polished. If not for the fact that I hate advertisement and tracking with a vengeance, I'd gladly use them.

Yeah, the latest Android TV (Sony) update has ads at the top of the screen that you can't disable.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#389

Post by delecti »

Spivak wrote: post #217
oxfordmale wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is getting harder and harder, even for devices like dish washers where there is absolutely no need for internet connectivity.

It would be nice to get notified when my dishes are done. We’re it not for weirdly malicious data harvesting I think this would be considered a neat feature.

I agree. I think there are loads of "smart" things that sound super neat in principle. The problem is finding a company who is competent at making software, competent at making hardware, and trustworthy enough to allow to put a tracking device into my home. Those are three small circles without much (any?) overlap.

Re: 72% of smart TVs and 46% of game consoles hardcode DNS settings

#390

Post by smileysteve »

Bud wrote: post #261

This isn't difficult: TVs should not be "smart". TVs should be incredibly dumb. They should be screens for displaying stuff. That's it. Nothing else. No network connection of any kind, no apps, no software beyond that necessary to do basic setup of how that screen works: brightness, input selection, etc.

Disagree. My 75 yo parents still have a dumb tv. They have different remotes for cable, sound, blue ray player ( some smart apps), fire tv, and apple tv.

Their life is not easier because of this, they don't watch what they want when they want because it takes minutes to get to a different source.

I know what I'm getting them for Christmas

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