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We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

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Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#491
post #391

Here's why I have absolutely no sympathy for Google in this situation. They hired Gebru as a professional thorn in their side. "Come up in here and be a pain in the ass! Tell us what we're doing wrong!", they said. "We're Enlightened Corporate America, after all!" She is a chess piece in the game of Wokeness Street Cred. She then proceeded to do the job she was hired for, and now they're all "Hey lady, Here At Google…

If you would fire someone for doing what they were hired to do then maybe you should reflect on whether you are in fact a manager.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed; but this isn't just a Google problem. Seems to me like a lot of SF (and SF-inspired) "big tech" wants to be known for their "wokeness"[1], which leads to hires like Timnit and other "politically-outspoken" people, which in turn leads to situations like this, James Damore, and other individuals/situations that amount to workplace political activism. I am wholly uncomfortable with any discussion of politics in…

The problem here is that AI and race now intersect in non trivial ways. It’s like having privacy as political discourse when you are scanning emails for marketing purposes. There’s a line at which not having the discussion is equivalent to taking a political stance.

This.

It was literally her job to conduct such research. It's not politics, it's ethics (tethics)

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#493
post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a linear regression is explainable. You know what your features represent, and the regression puts a straight-up co-efficient on each of them. You can look at the weights you trained, see how strongly your input features contribute to the output prediction, and say things like "if all else is equal, 25-49 males are 0.08 likely to click on this ad". Deep nets aren't explainable in that way, even if you devoted a…

> Yes, a linear regression is explainable. I don't agree that this is, in general, the case. Dense linear models trained on a lot of parameters aren't exactly simple to trace, and even the weights aren't as intuitive as they might seem.What about regularization? What about pre-processing? What about feature selection? There are a lot of examples of linear regressions where, for example, you can reverse the sign of th…

Ok, fair enough, the more sophistication you add, the less explainable it gets.

That being said, you can look at magnitude and direction of various coefficients and conclude certain obvious things. Even the case where reversing the correlation by picking some features instead of others says something -- those features point different ways but one has a higher magnitude so it 'wins'. They're ultimately pretty simple statistical observations about the training set.

A deep net, in comparison, is a totally unexplainable black box between the cross-linking and the sigmoid functions.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm less cynical about this as a concept. Would you feel differently if, say, Apple hired a "Privacy Watchdog", with a long history of activism on the topic? Someone you could trust to speak out if something was amiss. If the person is later fired, that's a sign that something is wrong at the company. But if they stay , and have generally good things to say, that's a sign the company can be trusted. I do think this i…

I think that works if there's a clear way to distinguish the hypothetical privacy watchdog leaving/getting fired due to issues with the privacy program, versus leaving/getting fired for other reasons. Making that distinction, imo, seems to be the core disagreement with the current Google issue, at least among all of us commenting on the outside.

Well, if the ombudsman leaves the company amicably, they can say so.

But it should be understood going in that there's no way to "fire" a person like this (at least without raising a storm), regardless of the reason. I don't think that should be such a problem—it's like giving tenure to a professor, except unlike at some universities, an organization will only have a small number of this kind of employee.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re the existence of an internal review (tl;dr: it definitely does exist!): A Google employee here who's actually published research there. There definitely IS an internal review and an approval process and every single paper I have published while there had to go through it. Everyone I knew had to submit for an internal review well in advance and I personally couldn't even submit to a conference review once because w…

Thank you for speaking up! To be clear, there’s no question it exists. But multiple (admittedly former) google researchers have gone on record saying that this is meant to be a quick scan for trade secrets leakage, and nothing more than that. Certainly not some kind of academic integrity review. That’s what the journal reviewers are for. The point of the scientific process is to be allowed to fail and to be mistaken.…

Typically this is not something you worry about too much. You work on a research project, you talk to people around you, your research manager and everyone around you pretty openly, and if something was going very wrong, you'd likely know because someone would have told you along the way. So by the time you are submitting for internal review, the expectation is that you will almost certainly pass, but typically the reviewers tale their job pretty seriously (and so did I when I served as one) and spent a week or two reading through your paper in their "spare" time and writing a comment on the science, the method, the conclusions etc. The not-leaking-secrets part is certainly there, but that's the lowest bar to pass, so one rarely worries about it practically if one works on public datasets and doing fundamental science.

My experience might be different from what Dr Gebru was going through since I never rubbed against anything that could have been considered company secret. My work was entirely academic and I never felt that I was restricted in any way in the questions that I could ask or the papers I could write. That is likely very different when you are criticizing a product, using internal data etc, which might have been the case with her. It also seems that she was in no way diplomatic about her actions.

When you do fundamental research there, it's as free or possibly even freer than standard academic institutions. As I said, I personally never felt any implicit let alone explicit forces telling what to work on / what to avoid.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#496
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like all of the actions to "rectify" the aforementioned issues clearly involve threats to democracy and free speech. For example, the far-left "woke" interpretation has historically made use of and encouraged "cancel culture" to punish people that disagree with that worldview, which deprives them of their right to free speech. This is not imagined -- many people's lives have been destroyed because of this. F…

Freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences. The only people that are 'frightened' by equality are those that have historically benefited from the lack of equality.

> "Freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences."

It's kind of surprising to see that even the direct example of Ms. Gebru having just experienced "consequences" hasn't jolted people into realizing that that tired old phrase is problematic precisely because it cuts both ways.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#497
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like that is always going to be a problem, since if the person is getting fired critiquing the thing they are there to critique, the company will always have a huge incentive to present another explanation.

I think we agree on the difficulty here. I believe the reverse is also true: if the person is fired for a legitimate, non-watchdog reason, they have an incentive to say the firing was due to them bring up privacy/ethics concerns.

believe Google vs believe a solitary worker (female, black, known political agenda)

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that works if there's a clear way to distinguish the hypothetical privacy watchdog leaving/getting fired due to issues with the privacy program, versus leaving/getting fired for other reasons. Making that distinction, imo, seems to be the core disagreement with the current Google issue, at least among all of us commenting on the outside.

Well, if the ombudsman leaves the company amicably, they can say so. But it should be understood going in that there's no way to "fire" a person like this (at least without raising a storm), regardless of the reason. I don't think that should be such a problem—it's like giving tenure to a professor, except unlike at some universities, an organization will only have a small number of this kind of employee.

I agree it depends on the number of folks in such a role. One person at a large company should be manageable. In this case, Google seems to have a moderate number of AI ethicists, which presents a more difficult hiring problem.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#499
post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first page was leaked. The environmental angle was a significant part of it, particularly the claim that environmental and financial costs ‘doubly punishes marginalized communities’.

Didn't google get to carbon neutral?

Yes, since 2007.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic difference is that she implied I&D work at Google was ineffective while he implied half his co-workers were unworthy of their jobs. She made her managers mad while he made half the company mad.

I would say she did much more than imply - she wrote a workplace email imploring her coworkers to stop doing their jobs - something that would get you fired anywhere, any time. I also think you’re overstating Damore’s claims and you’re taking the interpretation or reaction to his claims to be equivalent to the claims themselves. The claims themselves, that innate biological differences between men and women can partl…

Did she say to stop doing your job? Or to stop writing about achieving diversity?

Damore said more than just that there might be reasons for the lack of women in tech. He also said that we should stop trying to increase their representation. Among a bunch of other things.

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