The Erosion of Deep Literacy • Hacker News Board

Re: The Erosion of Deep Literacy

#41

Post by 1996 » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 1:56 PM UTC

galangalalgol wrote: post #15

bzg wrote: post #2

Long and nice read. Ten years ago, there was still heated debates about whether Nicolas Carr was right. Now we kind of know he somehow was right, so parts of the debate are over, while others, still relevant parts, leave us speachless. Or maybe that's just me.

I haven't read Carr, but the article makes it sound as if only reading attention span is addressed. I am astounded at my inability to watch films I enjoyed as a young adult because the scenes are too long and the story unfolds too slowly.

Likewise, I am astounded at my inability to watch most modern media, because the scenes are too short and the story unfold too quickly.

I feel that the most in the Simpsons: same characters, but it feels so different than the early seasons!!

My absolute favorite sci-fi show is Star Trek TOS. It's not from my generation, but I relate far more to the way the story is told - without 3 different plotline unfolding at once in the same show, and without 1 of them requiring me to remember perfectly what happened in the last 3 episodes.

I want self contained episodes and slow action.

Re: The Erosion of Deep Literacy

#42

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 2:18 PM UTC

kiba wrote: post #24

keiferski wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't whether there are abundant "literate" resources (podcasts, in your example) but whether the average member of a democratic society is literate. More importantly, whether the elites are deeply literate. I don't know about you, but when I look at the popular media and at political leaders, they seem highly illiterate compared to those from just a century ago. Even the "literate elite" media, e.g. The Ne…

So, it 'seems'. Is there a systematic study measuring the 'literacy' quality of thoughts over time in media?

[deleted]

Re: The Erosion of Deep Literacy

#43

Post by hrktb » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

samoa42 wrote: post #10

ultramundane8 wrote: post #6

This is a really interesting piece. I've been wanting to rage against illiteracy lately but I'm not too active in public discourse (even this). That said, I don't think it's some secret key to improving humanity. I think this because literacy is ultimately a luxury, even in modernity. The literate may be able to form more nuanced opinions, but that matters less if they can't increase literacy consistently across popu…

"those who dont know history are bound to repeat it" literacy is the only way to improve humanity.

I can’t imagine people trying to bring back a “golden age” of white supremacy are ignorant of the past.

I think there is a solid point made by the GP about what literacy is needed for. To me the end game is not to have a randomly erudite population, but well adjusted people. Literacy is only a small part of that.

Re: The Erosion of Deep Literacy

#44

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 3:04 PM UTC

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #13

I like to read books. I do not like to read long-form articles. Why? Because the vast majority of long-form articles are written by people who are lacking a quality editor. They are virtually always a superfluous, stream-of-consciousness verbal vomit that beats the reader over the head with information that is tangentially related to the purpose of the article, and they are usually 4-5x as long as they really need to…

Yes! My wife is an Editor. Once office publishing became a thing, folks forgot they needed and Editor. Downhill ever since, at least on that front.

Re: The Erosion of Deep Literacy

#45

Post by giovannibonetti » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 3:11 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #21

DubiousPusher wrote: post #12

This article makes far reaching societal claims with essentially no evidence. The evidence presented is in the form of "feelings" of various writers concerned of their own decline in literaryfocus. An unvoiced assumption that people were historically more literate pervades the entire article. As a former lit. major I used to buy into this kind of thing. But I now think this belief is the product of profound selection…

The issue isn't whether there are abundant "literate" resources (podcasts, in your example) but whether the average member of a democratic society is literate. More importantly, whether the elites are deeply literate. I don't know about you, but when I look at the popular media and at political leaders, they seem highly illiterate compared to those from just a century ago. Even the "literate elite" media, e.g. The Ne…

Journalism was a very coveted field 50 years ago. Lots of bright people wanted to work there. Nowadays there are many interesting and rewarding jobs for people with good education, and the news industry is losing resources to social networks and online classified sites.

A similar analysis can be applied to explain the decline in the quality of school teachers. Women used to have very few work opportunities in the past, and many of the brightest ones would end up teaching. That's not the case anymore, there are many more rewarding paths nowadays, like getting a law degree.

So, please don't assume the quality of journalism has dropped because the literacy level of society has fallen.

Re: The Erosion of Deep Literacy

#46

Post by paganel » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 3:19 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #21

DubiousPusher wrote: post #12

This article makes far reaching societal claims with essentially no evidence. The evidence presented is in the form of "feelings" of various writers concerned of their own decline in literaryfocus. An unvoiced assumption that people were historically more literate pervades the entire article. As a former lit. major I used to buy into this kind of thing. But I now think this belief is the product of profound selection…

The issue isn't whether there are abundant "literate" resources (podcasts, in your example) but whether the average member of a democratic society is literate. More importantly, whether the elites are deeply literate. I don't know about you, but when I look at the popular media and at political leaders, they seem highly illiterate compared to those from just a century ago. Even the "literate elite" media, e.g. The Ne…

> The New Yorker, has dropped in quality from a few decades ago. Just read some old issues to see what I mean.

Heck, I remember reading a cycling news article from the sports newspaper L'Equipe citing Villon about 10 years ago (when that newspaper still was a proper one, i.e. big-format), judging by what most French people say on /r/soccer when it comes to L'Equipe that level of literacy has not been maintained.

Re: The Erosion of Deep Literacy

#47

Post by samizdis » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 3:38 PM UTC

g5095 wrote: post #26

LOOK AT THE MEDIUM. I pick up a book, it has HEFT. I FEEL satisfied with my selection in hand, that I have acquired a goodly amount of reading material on a subject or by an author who I feel is worthy of my time. I open the book and skim the contents page, a worthy array of subjects that pique my interest entice me on but the MEDIUM prevents me from an indulgent glance. I understand inherently that I am expected to…

That made me chuckle; I like your sense of humour.

I read a great deal, print and online. HN frequently serves as my filter for hefty online articles; I look at the comments to inform decisions to read or avoid.

Re: The Erosion of Deep Literacy

#48

Post by scott_meyer » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 3:41 PM UTC

>Deep reading has in large part informed our development as humans

As a statistic, reading is only significant in the past 200 years or so. Given that there was a similar kerfuffle a couple thousand years ago when we shifted from memorizing to writing things down, I doubt that this is too significant.

Literacy is also shifting. Growing up with memes and Instagram and Tiktok has produced a generation that is vastly more literate in design, photography and film.

Re: The Erosion of Deep Literacy

#49

Post by LudwigNagasena » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 3:44 PM UTC

There are over 4 million of people with PhD only in the US, whopping 14% of the population, that’s more than the percentage of people with a comparable level education in any other period of history in any part of the world. This makes the whole premise of this article seem very dubious.

Re: The Erosion of Deep Literacy

#50

Post by LudwigNagasena » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #21

DubiousPusher wrote: post #12

This article makes far reaching societal claims with essentially no evidence. The evidence presented is in the form of "feelings" of various writers concerned of their own decline in literaryfocus. An unvoiced assumption that people were historically more literate pervades the entire article. As a former lit. major I used to buy into this kind of thing. But I now think this belief is the product of profound selection…

The issue isn't whether there are abundant "literate" resources (podcasts, in your example) but whether the average member of a democratic society is literate. More importantly, whether the elites are deeply literate. I don't know about you, but when I look at the popular media and at political leaders, they seem highly illiterate compared to those from just a century ago. Even the "literate elite" media, e.g. The Ne…

A member of a democratic society, the media and the elites are all different groups and their “deep literacy” may or may not correlate. To me the decline of perceived “literacy” among the elites seems like a direct effect of democratization and doesn’t represent any change of the distribution of “deep literacy” in the whole population.