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We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

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Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#341

Post by Niksko »

whatthesmack wrote: post #262
akie wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a far-left “woke” interpretation of the world that I view as of immediate threat to our way of living, democracy and free speech. WTF dude. The core argument as to what you say is a "woke" interpretation of the world is to reshape the world in such a way that inherent privilege (for example being rich, being white, being male) does not completely predetermine anyone's outcomes. So that you can still "make it" even…

It seems like all of the actions to "rectify" the aforementioned issues clearly involve threats to democracy and free speech. For example, the far-left "woke" interpretation has historically made use of and encouraged "cancel culture" to punish people that disagree with that worldview, which deprives them of their right to free speech. This is not imagined -- many people's lives have been destroyed because of this. F…

Freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences.

The only people that are 'frightened' by equality are those that have historically benefited from the lack of equality.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#342

Post by htfu »

0-_-0 wrote: post #135

"...is known for coauthoring a groundbreaking paper that showed facial recognition to be less accurate at identifying women and people of color, which means its use can end up discriminating against them" Wait, isn't that the other way around? If it can't recognize people of some category then it can't be used to discriminate against them, e.g. the police can't use it to identify peaceful protesters with those charac…

> e.g. the police can't use it to identify peaceful protesters with those characteristics

It can be used to (mis) identify them if the higher error rates are accepted. The problem isn't really the tech, but its application.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#343

Post by bzb6 »

cepth wrote: post #286
bzb6 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really making the argument that people with money can’t be leftists? Do you know liberals are on average richer? https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/19/economic-divide-in-the-us-is... Most executives of tech and news companies would bend over backwards just to show how leftist they are in 2020. (I’m only replying to the part of your comment that answers mine)

In the United States, liberal and leftist are distinct terms. Even someone like Ben Shapiro recognizes a difference between liberals and leftists ( https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/966081078166421504 ). Silicon Valley types would hardly be described as leftists. Numerous studies have been done on the attitudes of Silicon Valley founders and execs ( https://www.vox.com/2015/9/29/9411117/silicon-valley-politic...…

I see, they are the same thing to me, hence the confusion.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#344

Post by [deleted] »

viktorcode wrote: post #259
bartread wrote: post #158

Good grief - this terrible clickbaity headline writing: "We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google. Here’s what it says" The paper DID NOT force her out of Google. Her subsequent behaviour - submitting without approval, rant, ultimatum, and resignation - did. And she wasn't "forced out": she resigned of her own volition. She could have chosen to make improvements to the paper based on the feedback she…

> The paper DID NOT force her out of Google. We all would love to see an evidence of it.

[deleted]

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#345

Post by getlawgdon »

mikaeluman wrote: post #219

The problem I find with this has much to do with character. I will not comment on the research (because I do not know the field) but rather comment on why character matters and why motivation is important. Having read her email and tweets; it is quite clear that she is as much a political activist for a far-left “woke” interpretation of the world that I view as of immediate threat to our way of living, democracy and…

"woke" has obviously become much more of a triggering dog-whistle for the reactionary, privileged right than a shibboleth for the left. your comments are not insightful to the issue but ironically they convey your character.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#346

Post by mustuhfa »

tmotwu wrote: post #312
mustuhfa wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you link to your conclusions? Because thats not how I have seen it. She threatened to leave. If any of my team had an issue, and their response 'Do X, Y, X or ill leave', even if they are in the right, I would not align with them purely out of the fact that that is not the right behavior. You can still leave any company with out threats. Also we have not seen the email to the brain group. I wonder how that compar…

1. https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334877710477385728 2. How was LeCun harmed? As far as I'm concerned, he accepted the feedback. And just so we're clear on what happened then - Gebru was only one of many with qualifications who were aggressively critical because of his abdication of research responsibilities. I don't know why you're so focused on Gebru in particular. 3. Yes, if this was about performance, he…

1. Again, Managers are not the only person nor do they have to wait for someone’s direct manager to fire someone. If someone’s behavior is not acceptable, anyone authorized person in the company can fire them. Your link is irrelevant to facts.

2. Do you really think lecun wouldn’t have left Twitter if he didn’t find that conversation enjoyable? Do you discount the many other people who found her interactions with lecun horrible? Did any of the other people behave as arrogantly towards lecun as she did? Again, no point made.

3. See 1

4. See 1

So, you can either stop ignoring the fact that her own behavior led to this, or you can continue to think many other respected people in the industry who act way more professionally than her are just against her because they don’t support her views or think google is racist.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#347

Post by mustuhfa »

dash2 wrote: post #332
mustuhfa wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is utter nonsense. If you looked outside her twitter feed and at evidence, its clear she was fired because she was toxic. Her threat to leave was her own fault which allows google to move forward. Look at her interactions with respected people like lecun. She has issues with disagreeing with people. She may be qualified, she can have opinions, you can also be the best engineer. If you are an asshole when it come…

It is not clear at all. Nobody at Google has said that she was fired for being toxic. That’s your inference.

Sometimes reasons for firing are the last straw, not all the other things that led to that point.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#348

Post by tinyhouse »

This story blew out of proportion. Social media is sick. Some people's tweets read like she is some kind of a George Floyd level victim. She had the best job one can have. Lead researcher who got resources to build a team to work on her own research interest, having all the freedom. And making a killing doing it. She blew it and her race has nothing to do with what happened. She will be fine, joining academia as a tenured professor most likely. If you care about social justice focus on real victims who really need help. Not about this privileged researcher.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#349

Post by ethical-ai »

dash2 wrote: post #334
ethical-ai wrote: post #322

> Though Bender asked us not to publish the paper itself because the authors didn’t want such an early draft circulating online Should not you avoid submitting early drafts which are not good enough to be published yet?

No, it was submitted to a conference, that’s what they’re for. Not the same as submitting for publication.

In AI research conferences are main way to publish, if I understand you correctly. It is generally considered to be a bad practice to submit "such an early draft" for peer review. Moreover, if it was accepted, it would be "circulating online" in conference proceedings. Why is anyone surprised that the draft which is considered not good enough to share with public by authors themselves is banned from sharing (in form of conference publication) by internal review?

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#350

Post by CuriouslyC »

akie wrote: post #230
mikaeluman wrote: post #219

The problem I find with this has much to do with character. I will not comment on the research (because I do not know the field) but rather comment on why character matters and why motivation is important. Having read her email and tweets; it is quite clear that she is as much a political activist for a far-left “woke” interpretation of the world that I view as of immediate threat to our way of living, democracy and…

> a far-left “woke” interpretation of the world that I view as of immediate threat to our way of living, democracy and free speech. WTF dude. The core argument as to what you say is a "woke" interpretation of the world is to reshape the world in such a way that inherent privilege (for example being rich, being white, being male) does not completely predetermine anyone's outcomes. So that you can still "make it" even…

I think when people pull an episode of a TV show featuring an Asian man wearing make-up to play a dark elf due to fear of reprisal from race crusaders, we're in a bad place.
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