This is Real, That's Not • Hacker News Board

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#172

Post by twblalock » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:31 AM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #163

twblalock wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> College used to be something where you could reasonably pay tuition with a decent summer job. That was only true for a few decades in the late 20th century, due to massive state subsidies covered by taxpayers, many of whom did not get to go to college themselves. I guarantee you that college will not get cheaper if the student loan money dries up. The only thing that will change, is that only rich kids will get to…

And taking on massive student loan debt (also government subsidized) that you spend the majority of your adult lifetime paying off is only true for a few decades at the end of the 20th and beginning of the 21st century. I don't know why you're married to this concept as the end-all, be-all only option for education financing, especially when there is an endless flood of people saying how it personally harmed them. Th…

> And taking on massive student loan debt (also government subsidized) that you spend the majority of your adult lifetime paying off is only true for a few decades at the end of the 20th and beginning of the 21st century.

How much do you honestly think the average student takes on? What about the median?

You mentioned $40k/yr to learn Hamlet. The figures I am looking up show less than $30k total over 4 years of education. It is pretty hard to believe that can be a lifelong debt or result in "indentured servitude", as you put it.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#173

Post by bberrry » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:47 AM UTC

riffraff wrote: post #148

iddan wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike in Europe, in the US going to university or college requires huge amounts of money and usually require students to take loans. And unlike other types of loans it is nearly impossible to declare bankruptcy for student loans. There is a great summarising it: https://youtu.be/pVKEsiNMPNc

while not the norm, there are places in Europe where student loans are relatively common, e.g. Norway[0] and Sweden[1]. Just mentioning because I was very surprised when I discovered it, and it offers an interesting alternative on how student loans could work. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_Norway [1] https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment...

There is literally no tuition in Sweden. The loans are for rent and general cost of living. You can have literally zero means and still go to university in another city.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#174

Post by bberrry » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:50 AM UTC

bberrry wrote: post #173

riffraff wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while not the norm, there are places in Europe where student loans are relatively common, e.g. Norway[0] and Sweden[1]. Just mentioning because I was very surprised when I discovered it, and it offers an interesting alternative on how student loans could work. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_Norway [1] https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment...

There is literally no tuition in Sweden. The loans are for rent and general cost of living. You can have literally zero means and still go to university in another city.

What's more, the interest rate is practically free and you can take 25 years to pay them off if you want. Students are not seen as desperate marks to be exploited.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#175

Post by pjc50 » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:51 AM UTC

riffraff wrote: post #148

iddan wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike in Europe, in the US going to university or college requires huge amounts of money and usually require students to take loans. And unlike other types of loans it is nearly impossible to declare bankruptcy for student loans. There is a great summarising it: https://youtu.be/pVKEsiNMPNc

while not the norm, there are places in Europe where student loans are relatively common, e.g. Norway[0] and Sweden[1]. Just mentioning because I was very surprised when I discovered it, and it offers an interesting alternative on how student loans could work. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_Norway [1] https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment...

And the UK. Although it's not a normal loan in that repayments are linked to income and there is a promise that it will be "forgiven" at retirement (which I'm a little skeptical of)

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#176

Post by biztos » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:53 AM UTC

vecinu wrote: post #78

I hope my comment doesn't sound tone-deaf or ignorant but this is something I have thought about for a while. As I was watching @lisper's movie "grace of god"[1] and heard the phrase "convince myself that it could never happen to me" (becoming homeless), I started thinking, is this a more American-centric problem? What I mean by that is, can the lack of a social safety net in the US cause a much higher rate of homele…

There’s a lot of homelessness in Budapest, just to pick a place not so far from Romania. And it’s visible enough that I’m sure you think about it if you’re a low-wage worker without a strong network of family or friends.

While it’s not as crazy as in SF or LA, the problem is quite visible throughout the city, as are the homeless people themselves.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#177

Post by lb1lf » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:54 AM UTC

riffraff wrote: post #148

iddan wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike in Europe, in the US going to university or college requires huge amounts of money and usually require students to take loans. And unlike other types of loans it is nearly impossible to declare bankruptcy for student loans. There is a great summarising it: https://youtu.be/pVKEsiNMPNc

while not the norm, there are places in Europe where student loans are relatively common, e.g. Norway[0] and Sweden[1]. Just mentioning because I was very surprised when I discovered it, and it offers an interesting alternative on how student loans could work. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_Norway [1] https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment...

-But those loans do not cover tuition (which is basically free), but your living expenses while studying, which you would have incurred anyway.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#178

Post by ChrisMarshallNY » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:56 AM UTC

I am grateful to have read this. As a result of some “extracurricular” activities that I have pursued all my life, and by dint of having grown up in Africa, I have seen (and continue to see, to this day) things that make me feel profoundly uncomfortable, and nervous about my personal security and comfort.

I’m quite grateful for that.

And I miss Roddy McDowell.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#179

Post by OkayPhysicist » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:59 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #75

> She tried to insist that my offer to point her in the direction of gig work was unhelpful as she had some minimum income requirements to pay her student loans etc. Someone who is homeless and has no possession is poor. Someone who has nothing and debts is poorer than that. Don't get into debts as an individual. Just don't. Debt can be a tool for businesses, countries, can be part of an investment plan, you take ins…

The fact of the matter is that in the majority of cases, a college degree increases earning potential dramatically enough that loans are definitely worth it.

Now, one could argue that if people collectively stopped attending university at current rates then the system would adjust such that people collectively benefit. But people don't act collectively. People make decisions based on personal outcomes, and if spending 40 grand on college increases their lifetime earning potential by 100 grand (not even factoring in the differences in opportunities), then people will take the loans.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#180

Post by pjc50 » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 12:04 PM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #115

timeeater wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Germany we have homeless people, and Romania wouldn't come to mind as a place where they don't. More likely I would expect people from Romania to be homeless in Germany. I think some homeless here are (possibly illegal) immigrants who don't have access to the same social security measures. But there are also homeless Germans, despite of safety nets existing in theory. I think it is often associated with menta…

I've lived and worked in many different countries (including America and Germany), and there seem to be two main causes of homelessness: economic hardship and mental illness. In Germany, I've only seen homelessness due to mental illness, because the bureaucracy in the social programs causes too much friction for them to use it with decent success. There are organizations that help people navigate the mazes and paperw…

> The levels of economic inequality in America is something I'd only seen in third world countries before

I've concluded that the best way to understand America is as the top first world country and a Latin American third world country still struggling with the effects of colonization - in the same physical location. You can see bits of both next to each other, and the ugly coexistence of pretending not to see the problems.

Trump surprised a lot of people by suddenly manifesting the politics of the Latin American country - he's a lot more like Peron than GWB. He's a sort of "business generalissimo": rather than going around in a uniform with a bunch of unearned medals, he talks about his business "successes" (inherited or bankrupt) endlessly.