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This is Real, That's Not

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Re: This is Real, That's Not

#151
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you figure?

Not GC, but I'll try to answer constructively. I don't know Doreen personally, but the thing that always strikes me about her writing is how much of it is spent calling other people names (exactly as the GC did to her) or talking about how other people mistreat her. In this article: "classist", "toxic", "asshole", "mommy issues", "bullying me", "warped", "unhealthy", "harassing me", "insulting me" are all used. And y…

Pretty much. Reading these phrases made my skin crawl and really put me off the article. I did not even know beforehand that this was written by DoreenMichelle.

Maybe it is out of personal experience dealing with people that warp reality to fit their narrative but I tend to become overly sceptical when I see this style.

This comment also has a nice observation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25311796

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#152
post #105

Under the medically justified urgency of covid, Victoria took a significant number of homeless rough sleeping people (as they are called here in australia) into some kind of housing. Queensland did the same using surplus student purpose built dense housing. I'm not going to pretend this "solved the problems" but I am told a number of the less intractable cases got put into a better situation,simply having secure shel…

> But for nine months we reduced homelessness and structural health problems to single digit or less and it almost certainly saved money. > That's the truly amazing thing: the net budget effect on federal and state funded interventions was probably better, and they STILL unwound the programmes. According to the treasurer of Victoria, they allocated $150 million budget to provide this accommodation for 2000 people. Th…

There are definitely not 20k+ Victorians out on the streets every night. That figure almost certainly includes the vast majority of homeless people who are sleeping on mates' couches etc.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#153
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike in Europe, in the US going to university or college requires huge amounts of money and usually require students to take loans. And unlike other types of loans it is nearly impossible to declare bankruptcy for student loans. There is a great summarising it: https://youtu.be/pVKEsiNMPNc

while not the norm, there are places in Europe where student loans are relatively common, e.g. Norway[0] and Sweden[1]. Just mentioning because I was very surprised when I discovered it, and it offers an interesting alternative on how student loans could work. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_Norway [1] https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment...

And here (Sweden, Norway) the student loan is used for living costs: rent, food, books, and nothing goes to the university.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#154
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike in Europe, in the US going to university or college requires huge amounts of money and usually require students to take loans. And unlike other types of loans it is nearly impossible to declare bankruptcy for student loans. There is a great summarising it: https://youtu.be/pVKEsiNMPNc

while not the norm, there are places in Europe where student loans are relatively common, e.g. Norway[0] and Sweden[1]. Just mentioning because I was very surprised when I discovered it, and it offers an interesting alternative on how student loans could work. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_Norway [1] https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment...

There are student loans in virtually every country, including Europe, and I'd say they're quite commonly used. The difference is whether they're required to pay for tuition or not. For example, in Norway public universities (which are most, including the best ones) are tuition-free.

In countries like the Netherlands, there is tuition, but heavily subsidised. Fees are about 2k per year, and low (and partially to middle-income) households get a government stipend that is more than double that fee per year.

In short, people in these countries have to pay living expenses, tuition is pretty much covered. And a lot of these countries are quite small and have people living near the university, with decent public transportation, which is often free for students as well. As such lots of students live at home instead of on-campus, moving out for lifestyle reasons as soon as they can (often taking out loans to supplement a parttime job), rather than for the logistics of having to move to a place near the university.

In the US there's a lot of subsidies, state programs, scholarships etc as well. But many people still end up paying way more, especially if they're going out of state. And there's lots of people who end up having to move city to study somewhere, which means paying for room and board are very much a requisite part of their studies.

As such the loan amounts are nowhere near as large. Second, loans tend to be government issued, the cost-of-capital essentially tracking the interest on state bonds (e.g. treasury bills in the US) with a cap of 0%. This means in the Netherlands for example interest rates for student loans have been 0% for years and will likely remain at 0% for many years. This presents a wildly different outlook for students because borrowing $30k today isn't going to turn into having to pay back $100k over the course of the loan the coming decades, but just $30k, which is depreciating due to inflation in real terms over time.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially not in the most wealthy nation in the history of the world. Everyone keeps repeating this, but it's not true. Switzerland beats America by mean net worth. And look at median... whoa 22. By government deficit (and likely household, corporate, etc), I bet we're #1 in all categories. The truth is, America is great at spending money. That doesn't make it wealthy, quite the opposite. https://en.wikipedia.org/…

When people say "most wealthy nation" they mean GDP, not per-capita. America's wide discrepancy between those two is usually the point.

That's nonsense, by that token India is far richer than Switzerland. That's simply not how 'wealthiest nation' is used in the colloquial sense.

For your meaning other terms would be used, e.g. saying India has a larger economy than Switzerland, or a larger market.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#156
post #78

I hope my comment doesn't sound tone-deaf or ignorant but this is something I have thought about for a while. As I was watching @lisper's movie "grace of god"[1] and heard the phrase "convince myself that it could never happen to me" (becoming homeless), I started thinking, is this a more American-centric problem? What I mean by that is, can the lack of a social safety net in the US cause a much higher rate of homele…

I have been told that it's also due to the fact that in Europe, people generally travel through a unified medical and social system from birth; if they exhibit problems they are directed to the necessary interventions (mental health services, addiction, etc.) Providing these services earlier on with a full picture has a higher ROI than intervening later without all information about that person's journey.

Additionally, I believe that for people who are seriously mentally ill, it's more difficult to section them in the US. In the UK, it takes a GP and social worker to section someone; I believe in the US it's not that simple.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#157
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homelessness exists because the landlords and business people prefer it. Homelessness is a demonstrated threat of what not paying the rent and having a job will do to you. If you remove that dire threat, the housing market and job market becomes far more competitive for the workers and the owner class is disadvantaged. In the US, we have many more vacant houses than we have homeless people. The market system is incap…

That's an interesting theory. I think there are competing interests, though. Landlords and businesses generally won't want homeless people in their areas, though, because their presence alone will decrease property values and rent (landlords), and drive away customers (businesses). But for what you suggest to work, homeless people need to be visible. Do you have any data on this? This doesn't really pass the smell te…

I don't think GP was saying that landlords keep hoards of miserable homeless people just outside the property, in order to scare tenants into paying their rent. People are plenty aware of economic reality.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#158
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who haven't experienced homelessness personally, doing volunteer (or paid) work for homeless shelters/outreach centers etc, or in mental health treatment centers, is one of the best ways to gain a fairly deep perspective, and get close to feeling what that perspective feels like, without actually walking a mile in those painful, broken shoes. My homeless experience was incredibly brief (4-5 months) compared…

If actually interacting with with homeless people takes you too far outside your comfort zone, I spent two years trying to get a homeless person off the street and made a movie about it: http://graceofgodmovie.com/ So you can just watch that.

It’s a wonderful movie about a difficult topic. Great job.

Thank you for making it and for sharing it here—I watched it based on this recommendation, and it was well worth the watch.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#159
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they do, they want you to keep racking up fees and interest so you end up paying even more. You'll pay until you're dead. They don't have programs like this for other loans because they don't need them. If they look at your finances when you apply for a mortgage and think you'll need an income-based program, they don't loan you the money. If something happens and you can't pay, they can repossess your car o…

> We wouldn't need these programs for student debt if you could declare bankruptcy and have the loan discharged that way. Ok, then only rich people get to go to college. Student loans cannot be discharged because they are not risk based. If they were risk-based, the only people who could qualify for them wouldn't need them anyway. 18-year-olds don't have credit history, and most of them don't have income either. You…

Of course they're risk based. It's just that all the risk is borne by the borrower, not the lender. Take out a bunch of loans and can't get a job? Too bad! You still have to pay your loans anyway. Your risk didn't work out.

> 18-year-olds don't have credit history, and most of them don't have income either.

Yes, this is exactly why in every other normal circumstance, lending them money is a bad idea.

College used to be something where you could reasonably pay tuition with a decent summer job. If there is not an infinite supply of money to pay tuition, tuition will have to be lower. This will make it more accessible, not less.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#160
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We wouldn't need these programs for student debt if you could declare bankruptcy and have the loan discharged that way. Ok, then only rich people get to go to college. Student loans cannot be discharged because they are not risk based. If they were risk-based, the only people who could qualify for them wouldn't need them anyway. 18-year-olds don't have credit history, and most of them don't have income either. You…

Of course they're risk based. It's just that all the risk is borne by the borrower, not the lender. Take out a bunch of loans and can't get a job? Too bad! You still have to pay your loans anyway. Your risk didn't work out. > 18-year-olds don't have credit history, and most of them don't have income either. Yes, this is exactly why in every other normal circumstance, lending them money is a bad idea. College used to…

> College used to be something where you could reasonably pay tuition with a decent summer job.

That was only true for a few decades in the late 20th century, due to massive state subsidies covered by taxpayers, many of whom did not get to go to college themselves.

I guarantee you that college will not get cheaper if the student loan money dries up. The only thing that will change, is that only rich kids will get to go to college.

Even public schools are building luxury student housing on campus. They aren't going to cut back, because they will always have enough rich kids and foreign students to cover the cost of running the place. In-state students are not who pay the bills.

We don't live in a socialist country. If we hope for a utopia we will only lock non-rich kids out of college. If you want normal people to be able to afford college, they need access to loans, which fortunately have flexible terms and, again, amount to about the cost of a new car. It's hardly a dystopia. It's a realistic accomodation to a capitalist society, and a college loan is one of the least burdensome loans those students will undertake in their lives.

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