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Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

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Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#401

Post by triceratops »

sdenton4 wrote: post #327
calibas wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all semantics, but the idea was that Java is a "real" language for serious use and JavaScript is a "script" that's much easier to use and doesn't involve all the complications of a "real" programming language. It was only kind of true back then, and not even remotely true now. There really isn't a solid line you can draw between a "script" and a "programming language". To me, something like Python is right in…

I feel like "requires compilation" is a good first order differentiator. And "has a somewhat sane type system" is another.

TypeScript requires compilation and has a rich type system. It also has "script" in the name.

I think "scripting" vs "programming" language differentiation is elitist nonsense. This isn't a meaningful boundary. It's more useful to speak of languages in terms of strong/duck/loose typing, syntax, supported programming paradigms, ecosystems, available libraries and tooling, and intended use cases.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#402

Post by jrumbut »

ChrisSD wrote: post #375
brundolf wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not surprised that the architecture isn't new, I'm surprised that web apps were already being talked about this way using JS specifically. JS's early design flaws are often written off as, "well it was never intended to be a real programming language like it is today". But from reading this, that doesn't sound to be the case.

I think JS' early design flaws were a result of being written in a day more than anything to do with a specific purpose (I exaggerate but not by much). Though it is true that most people at the time used JS (if they used it) for much simpler tasks than described in the article.

I think in some ways the problems people have experienced come back to a language design that is fairly ambitious.

Specifically the inclusion of a prototype OO system is confusing if you aren't aware what that is and have only been exposed to Java-like OO programming. But in fact it's very powerful and not so hard to learn once you realize you have to.

As with other web technologies, it's simple at first glance but the learning curve gets steeper at some point.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#403

Post by dragonwriter »

brundolf wrote: post #399
tracker1 wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't so much think of them as flaws... the first use case was form validation, and most of the fuzzy type coercion makes a ton of sense through that lens, where ''. 0, etc. coercion to falsy is easy for dealing with user input. It's also why it's one of my favorite options for ETL workloads. It's just a matter of understanding the langauge. That said, it's been my favorite language since well before the "good part…

I use JS every day; I would say I like it. I would even say that in 2020, if you know what you're doing, it's a pretty good language on the whole. But I don't think it's controversial to say that the following were objectively bad decisions (in hindsight, of course, but still): - Automatic casting behavior between the core types (you're the only person I've ever heard suggest that this might be a good thing) - Automa…

> Automatic casting behavior between the core types

This is (mostly) awesome for quick/light glue scripting and a (almost entirely) a horrible pain for most other programming. As the scale of JS apps has gone up, this has gone from probably being a net win from the way JS was used early on on the web to being a net harm.

> Distinction between undefined and null

This existence of this distinction is, IMO, a very good thing, but there's some big ergonomic issues with the implementation. (The rest of your list I agree with.)

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#404

Post by ebruchez »

zepto wrote: post #347
derefr wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. JavaScript was a web language for web developers to be able to automate forms, etc, client-side. AFAIK, originally it was never intended to run on the JVM server-side like Groovy does. Sure, but that's not an argument against JavaScript having potentially been a planned part of the JVM ecosystem (or, at least, a language playing a role in the JVM ecosystem, without itself being hosted on the JVM, instead maybe…

You actually could script against applets, it was just incredibly clunky and slow, and so not worth it.

I did exactly this as part of a school project back in 1996! The applet was doing the computations, and the JavaScript, with this thing called "LiveConnect", was calling into the applet and back :)

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#406

Post by lostcolony »

snazz wrote: post #227
lostcolony wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's something JS also shares with Java, no. A huge number of the people focusing in it are terrible devs.

It's popular and taught in schools, so I don't think this is really surprising.

Yeah, was not saying it was surprising. JS is basically required for frontend dev, and the number of bootcamps means a lot of supply, much of which is low grade. Java is super common for large projects at large companies where bad devs can basically be unnoticed, so little wonder there's so many poor Java devs at all levels of experience.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#407

Post by spullara »

overkill28 wrote: post #36

I still don't know why they stuck the "Java" name on JavaScript. Very confusing when the two languages are completely unrelated. > Java programs and JavaScript scripts are designed to run on both clients and servers, with JavaScript scripts used to modify the properties and behavior of Java objects, so the range of live online applications that dynamically present information to and interact with users over enterpris…

A few answers based on my recollections. JavaScript was a trade with Sun. Sun allowed them to name it that and Netscape integrated Applets into the browser.

As for the API, yes. You could control the DOM from Java without the big grey square of an applet through an API built into browers at the time:

https://web.mit.edu/java_v1.5.0_22/distrib/share/docs/guide/...

However, it was rarely used. The world might be a far different place if folks had used a higher performance (and at the time far more capable) language for manipulating the DOM early on rather than the focus on recreating the whole UI of the application on a canvas.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#408

Post by GordonS »

brundolf wrote: post #284

What stands out to me is how much more foresight they had than I'd thought about the ways JS would be used: > With JavaScript, an HTML page might contain an intelligent form that performs loan payment or currency exchange calculations right on the client in response to user input. A multimedia weather forecast applet written in Java can be scripted by JavaScript to display appropriate images and sounds based on the c…

> Edit: Apparently they already ran JS on the server! I had no idea

Hmm, I started work as a web developer back in 2000, and I don't remember ever coming across such a notion. The first time I heard of JavaScript being used server-side was NodeJS many years later.

Re: Netscape and Sun Announce JavaScript (1995)

#409

Post by dsego »

MentallyRetired wrote: post #230
lostcolony wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also probably incorrect; DHTML didn't involve loading data via AJAX after the page loaded, but instead configuring the webpage on the client side after loading it. That said, ask them if they'd prefer the backend in PHP or Coldfusion.

As someone who's been making websites since 1993, everything you said here has made me twitch in one way or another. I've been a ColdFusion team lead, a PHP developer and I used to write DHTML scripts. Also RIP to separation of concerns on the frontend (document [html], style [css] and behavior [js]) since it's all buried in javascript nowadays.

Rip separation of technologies (not concerns) and welcome to composable and soon dynamically run federated UI modules.
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