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S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

reuters.com

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Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#551

Post by colejohnson66 »

itsoktocry wrote: post #444
colejohnson66 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m enjoying sitting on the sidelines and watching people “invest” in a digital “currency” that you cannot spend, does not produce cash flow, and whose values are determined by other shmucks buying it from previous shmucks. Is that any different than a stock though? You can’t spend stocks, they don’t produce cash flow (ignoring dividends), and their value is what other’s are buying and selling it for. Just as I can…

> Is that any different than a stock though? Nobody is claiming that stocks will replace fiat currency, though. In fact, it makes no sense.

Was Bitcoin created to replace currencies? Or was it created to be another one? Genuine question. Because if it’s the first, you’d have an argument, but if it’s the latter, it’s a straw man to make the claim you did.

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#552

Post by andrewmcwatters »

flignats wrote: post #547
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why in the world would I want that? I can remove write permissions from an SQLite database and rsync it to any VPS in the world for pennies on the dollar. The ledger concept is weird to me. No one is asking for it. And you certainly don't "own" it by owning Bitcoin. You can go download the software and own it.

No, you don't own it but it is a very simple way to understand why you'd want it as an investment. As for why would you want that? Ledgers are a fundamental part of how many things work. Blockchain is an evolution of the ledger. It literally makes things faster, cheaper, more secure. Bitcoin's blockchain will disrupt (evolve) something. The leading use case is a store of value. If that is to be adopted then bitcoin's…

> It literally makes things faster, cheaper, more secure.

How? I'm pretty sure if this was true, everyone would be using it for database work now, except no one does. So these claims are baseless.

> Bitcoin's blockchain will disrupt (evolve) something. The leading use case is a store of value. If that is to be adopted then bitcoin's value will be in the trillions.

Evolve what? You don't even seem to be sure and are just guessing that it's novel and surely has some value, but you don't know why. Trillions? Where do you get this number from? Do you somehow take the size of an existing market and assign a value per consumer? Where is the rigor behind your claims?

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#553

Post by dwaltrip »

shawnz wrote: post #549
dwaltrip wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the basis for the distinction or that choice of word? Why not just say bread is more widely valued than a the dollar? There are also many, many situations where I’d rather have dollars than bread.

Bread isn't necessarily more widely valued than a dollar. Bread has more functional/useful value than a dollar. A dollar only has value if you can exchange it for something else

It doesn't sound like you are arguing for intrinsic value, but I'm not sure. I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying.

Although I think we should mention that one can write a sentence for bread that is very similar to the one you gave for dollars. Bread only has value if you are hungry and don't have other more preferable food sources.

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#554

Post by shawnz »

dwaltrip wrote: post #553
shawnz wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bread isn't necessarily more widely valued than a dollar. Bread has more functional/useful value than a dollar. A dollar only has value if you can exchange it for something else

It doesn't sound like you are arguing for intrinsic value, but I'm not sure. I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. Although I think we should mention that one can write a sentence for bread that is very similar to the one you gave for dollars. Bread only has value if you are hungry and don't have other more preferable food sources.

Sure, but when you are hungry then that intrinsic value is expressed for you. But there's no situation in which cash is useful except for exchanging.

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#555

Post by dwaltrip »

shawnz wrote: post #554
dwaltrip wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't sound like you are arguing for intrinsic value, but I'm not sure. I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. Although I think we should mention that one can write a sentence for bread that is very similar to the one you gave for dollars. Bread only has value if you are hungry and don't have other more preferable food sources.

Sure, but when you are hungry then that intrinsic value is expressed for you. But there's no situation in which cash is useful except for exchanging.

What's special about "being hungry with no better alternatives" versus "being able to exchange with others who use the same money as me?""

I don't understand what specifically makes some kind of value "intrinsic" under your model.

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#556

Post by shawnz »

dwaltrip wrote: post #555
shawnz wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but when you are hungry then that intrinsic value is expressed for you. But there's no situation in which cash is useful except for exchanging.

What's special about "being hungry with no better alternatives" versus "being able to exchange with others who use the same money as me?"" I don't understand what specifically makes some kind of value "intrinsic" under your model.

"An object with intrinsic value may be regarded as an end, or in Kantian terminology, as an end-in-itself."

"In philosophy and ethics, an end, or telos, is the ultimate goal in a series of steps. For example, according to Aristotle the end of everything we do is happiness. It is contrasted to a means, which is something that helps you achieve that goal. For example, money or power may be said to be a means to the end of happiness."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_%28ethics%29

Fiat currency and bitcoin, and to some extent gold, are not an end-in-themselves but just a means to acquire something which is actually useful to you. They are not in and of themselves useful to anybody.

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#557

Post by dwaltrip »

shawnz wrote: post #556
dwaltrip wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's special about "being hungry with no better alternatives" versus "being able to exchange with others who use the same money as me?"" I don't understand what specifically makes some kind of value "intrinsic" under your model.

"An object with intrinsic value may be regarded as an end, or in Kantian terminology, as an end-in-itself." "In philosophy and ethics, an end, or telos, is the ultimate goal in a series of steps. For example, according to Aristotle the end of everything we do is happiness. It is contrasted to a means, which is something that helps you achieve that goal. For example, money or power may be said to be a means to the end…

Food is just a means to sustain my metabolic processes and create pleasant sensations. It isn't an end-in-itself.

If those goals were satisfied through other means, whether by using bio-engineering to modify my physiology or through some other process, would bread no longer have intrinsic value?

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#558

Post by nootropicat »

shawnz wrote: post #538
nootropicat wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's too much idle wealth in the world, or more precisely too many people with wealth have no idea what to do with it. It ends up 'invested' into negative yield assets like bitcoin (billions of dollars lost to mining per year - over 7 at the current price) or hyped companies running at perpetual loss. Bitcoin is interesting because it's possibly the biggest actual wealth destructor from all tradeable assets. Compa…

What's the difference from any kind of resource extraction industry that produces waste heat in addition to the resource?

That the gain from resource's utility is larger than losses, increasing the total amount of wealth in the world. Even in the case of gold, majority of demand is utility demand.

https://www.goldbroker.com/media/image/cms/media/images/glob...

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#559

Post by shawnz »

dwaltrip wrote: post #557
shawnz wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"An object with intrinsic value may be regarded as an end, or in Kantian terminology, as an end-in-itself." "In philosophy and ethics, an end, or telos, is the ultimate goal in a series of steps. For example, according to Aristotle the end of everything we do is happiness. It is contrasted to a means, which is something that helps you achieve that goal. For example, money or power may be said to be a means to the end…

Food is just a means to sustain my metabolic processes and create pleasant sensations. It isn't an end-in-itself. If those goals were satisfied through other means, whether by using bio-engineering to modify my physiology or through some other process, would bread no longer have intrinsic value?

This seems uselessly contrarian. Just because there are some philosophical edge cases/open questions about how we identify intrinsic versus extrinsic value doesn't change the fact that today, for human beings, the most useful and practical definition is one in which paper bills don't have intrinsic value but bread does.

Re: S&P Dow Jones Indices to launch cryptocurrency indexes in 2021

#560

Post by qes »

itsoktocry wrote: post #447
nofunphil wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying Bitcoin is becoming similar to buying gold. It’s a Store of Value. Why is gold an investment? Because it’s scarce and we have, as a society, decided it’s an investment. There may be nuances here, but that’s the basic idea. Bitcoin is digital gold. Most other tokens are similar buying fiat currencies which can help if you local fiat currency is hyper-inflating. But then some tokens give access to de-fi which a…

> It’s a Store of Value A 10 year old asset that has wild price fluctuations is a "store of value"? By what measure?

As long as you waited 4 years between storing value in Bitcoin and removing it you _always_ got more value out, no matter what point in time in Bitcoin's entire history you stored it.

And not just a little bit more value..

Is an index fund a store of value? Would you recommend someone store their value there if they wanted it back out in less than 4 years? Gold? Property? Or would you suggest those stores of value are only suitable for longer time frames? How much more value does someone who stored it in Bitcoin 10 years ago have now?

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