When I interviewed at goog a few years back one thing I noticed is the questions themselves are not hard. They are hard in the same vein as the questions in an old game show "Are you smarter than a 5th grader" were hard. Meaning that unless you came straight from college alot of the concepts you are not using in industry and have forgot. You won't use them at google but I suspect that it has a age bias built in as they favor younger workers.
“I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”
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Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”
#622Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am not expert enough to weigh in heavily on what's the best way to do that, but I feel like "software engineer" is just a title to make us feel great while we assemble our components much like the workers on an auto manufacturing line, but with a tiny bit more education and day-to-day work differences. However, with all the low-code and other tools which make it easier to write software and deploy it (crappy softwa…
If you ever met an assembly line worker or even watched a "how it's made" video you'd realize how absurd this claim is.
Yes, it's not 1:1, but the comparison is apt, IMO. I worked in a factory that had a semi-technical assembly line, in other words we had to train the workers to some level of technical competence (medical devices) and I see parallels in how I was onboarded at my current company. They don't care about your technical designs or how good your algos are, they just want you to pump out ticket completions as fast as possible, ensuring you follow the procedures to the letter, no matter what. As someone who thinks highly of my own abilities (why wouldn't one think highly of themselves?) I feel like my growth is stunted and my full abilities aren't being used because of the strict environment and procedures. I understand why they are there, I know they are important for quality (I was a QA manager at that factory) but I think there are better ways than treating coders like assembly line workers.
Don't take the comparison too literally, the actual work of putting a machine together is different than coding, and I'm not talking about "sticker applicators" type assembly lines, I'm talking about high-tech assembly lines like what I experienced (medical devices, in this case). I did base my comment on more experience than a few "How It's Made" episodes, though.
Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”
#623Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your comment inspired me to ask a question I've had for a while. My background is not CS, it's computer engineering. So I didn't have any education in the fancy algorithms that you'll find in these interviews. Is that expected or did I miss something?
I also went to school for CE and although we did have some algorithmic and data structures classes, I don't think they were as in-depth as the CS curriculum. For example, the only time I ever encountered red-black trees was in the context of prepping for software interviews.
I am currently in school for ce and I take the same algorithms courses as cs students, I feel like it is super dependent on school.
Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”
#624Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, I'm informed. But that doesn't make experience. And neither does a side project, really. And what side project needs cloud scale? The meet-up is a good idea.
Meet-ups may work. I met my current employer at a local Python meetup and got offered a position right away (I am 40+ too, by the way). I had recently moved to the area and had no contacts.
Also in Meetups you will find highly motivated people, the kind of people you want to work with.
Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”
#625I can't help but ask myself, why can't we just switch sides? Why can't a group of us "hackers" get together, create value, and thrive? Yeah, we need somebody to keep tabs on margins, and do marketing, and whatever else "business" but if those roles are UNDER engineering and answer to the hackers as opposed to the current system in which we are answering to business... why can't this work?? You guys very well know it…
Unless you live in a communist country that takes away a person's freedom to work for himself or create a company, you're free to try it. Having tried it myself a few times without success, I've found that I have drastically underestimated value provided by managers, sales, marketing and other professionals from other fields. Having managed technical teams, I also found that I have overestimated amount of motivations…
Hmmm... I think I totally agree with you on the premise that it could be very easy to overestimate the motivation of other engineers.
It might take more than a "group of hackers" but "a group of hackers that know each other"...
It might be that I'm hopelessly optimistic but one of my favorites quotes is by William Wilberforce, and he said:
“We are too young to realize that certain things are impossible... So we will do them anyway.” :-D
Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”
#626Earlier quoted context omitted.
I mean - desktop processor sales an insanely strong, AMD can't make enough. Gamers will buy every RTX3xxx card that hits the shelf and every heavy duty programmer I know has at least a fast desktop and often server racks. I don't think we need to worry about the future of the desktop just yet.
What is a heavy duty programmer?
Once who can spew thousands of lines of code each week :)
Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”
#627Earlier quoted context omitted.
Our industry feels like it's in the decline of the Roman Empire right now. Our craft is becoming arcane: Microsoft is building VSCode for the cloud. Few people own desktop computers anymore. Apple is locking down MacOS to signed binaries. Soon we'll all have thin clients and will write software in the cloud for the cloud. Few will be able to learn how to engineer at home anymore - you'll have to go to a university or…
And then age... I'm an eighties whizz-kid, educated hardware and software background with borderline epiphanic understanding of computer technology. From firmware to systems where peoples lives literally depend on. In 2000 jumped on a plane to Taiwan to develop the first Arduino/RaspberryPi class devices. Still up to date and currently busy polishing a ShowHN which will blow you off your socks. Everything nowadays is…
> Finding a job position is impossible.
What's your email? I'd love to reach out to you and discuss some openings that we have on our team.
Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”
#628Earlier quoted context omitted.
Our industry feels like it's in the decline of the Roman Empire right now. Our craft is becoming arcane: Microsoft is building VSCode for the cloud. Few people own desktop computers anymore. Apple is locking down MacOS to signed binaries. Soon we'll all have thin clients and will write software in the cloud for the cloud. Few will be able to learn how to engineer at home anymore - you'll have to go to a university or…
And then age... I'm an eighties whizz-kid, educated hardware and software background with borderline epiphanic understanding of computer technology. From firmware to systems where peoples lives literally depend on. In 2000 jumped on a plane to Taiwan to develop the first Arduino/RaspberryPi class devices. Still up to date and currently busy polishing a ShowHN which will blow you off your socks. Everything nowadays is…
> The excuses for rejection range from unbelief to insulting.
I was once rejected because I did not know inane crap like what "this" is bound to at the top-level in JavaScript. Their answer: "the window object". a) Yeah, okay, if your code only runs in the browser. But not nodejs. And b) if anyone uses a top-level "this" it's an instant reject in code review from me.
Ultimately, a lot of these interviewers are waving huge warning flags saying "stay away!"
Even FAANG. Every single algorithm there is a "trick" to it. Once you memorize that trick, every leetcode becomes trivial. But it took a guy like Knuth some 30 fucking years to come up with that "trick". It's so goddamn stupid memorizing bubble sort when every language has a built in sort you're going to use. And if you ever see a developer writing their own algorithm for bubble sort at work, you're going to think something is wrong with this person. What the fuck are you doing guy? You're going to get it wrong and there is a library for all of this, used by thousands of people with hundreds of bug fixes.
Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”
#629Earlier quoted context omitted.
A certification exam wouldn’t survive a disparate impact challenge. Google stopped asking for SAT/ACT scores long before universities did. And long before that (according to my father, who actually used them), telegram companies had to stop giving spelling tests to telegraph operator applicants. Add to that difficulties with preventing cheating during a pandemic, and I see no alternative to rolling your own live exam…
Other fields have certification exams. Why haven't they fallen to disparate impact challenges? Are you sure LeetCode would survive one?
Because just like how interviewing is gamed now by leetcoding, certification exams will also be gamed by some other phenomenon like 'certcoding'. There are plenty of certification programs floating around already, not to mention the coding bootcamps which behave something along those lines. Ultimately, it boils down to who plays the game better, be it interviewing process or certification exams.
Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”
#630Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why did you assume those jobs will stay in US?
Have you seen the offers for remote work? Almost every one is "remote (us citizen)", "remote (same timezone)", "remote (monthly onsites)". Unless the companies are prepared to open whole divisions with colocated management in other countries, the jobs are staying local.
Yes. Even then, a lot of the tech jobs remain in the US.
Look at the job listings for US tech company EMEA HQs. It's almost all sales and legal. Occasionally a pre-sales Engineer position comes up.
Meanwhile, they are hiring dozens of Devs at their US HQ.