Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher • Hacker News Board

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#61

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

mellosouls wrote: post #49

tmotwu wrote: post #18

It is unfortunate that way too many commenters on a prior threads dismissed her as a some twitter personality and trivialized her body of work in spite of the fact that she is well regarded and reputable in the ML community. It's becoming clear a rising number of her colleagues are in support of what she was seeking to publish. A reviewer on reddit mentioned the authors have plenty of time to make revisions if there…

It is unfortunate that way too many commenters on a prior threads dismissed her as a some twitter personality and trivialized her body of work in spite of the fact that she is well regarded and reputable in the ML community. Both the positive aspects of her contributions and the clear negatives of her approach were rightly pointed out by various people (as well as problems with process and politics at Google); perhap…

I think the tone on HN was markedly more critical than elsewhere and I certainly notice that the divergence in tone seems greatest when discussing black people and women.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#62

Post by laretluval » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

contemporary343 wrote: post #37

Google (and Google Brain in particular) benefited immensely from Gebru's work, and her being affiliated with them. This can be seen in how often they (including Jeff Dean) pointed to her work to show they were taking questions of fairness and bias in AI algorithms seriously. The flip side is that you have to respect the researcher, who frankly has more credibility than you do as an organization in this space. Even to…

Presumably there would have been time for discussion if the paper had not been submitted a day before the deadline.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#63

Post by lbotos » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

sitkack wrote: post #38

echelon wrote: post #2

Companies can't straddle the line. They're either going to have to go all-in on diversity, inclusion, and politics, or they're going to have to clamp down hard like Brian Armstrong. Google needs to decide what it wants to be. Given its choices, I think it's clear what they want. They just need to say it. It'll help employees and potential employees know if they want to work there.

Most companies want to appear to have a diversity of people who look different but have the same opinions and viewpoints as the rest of the group. What they should strive for is a diversity of backgrounds, viewpoints, experiences and have that process account for the differences in how those people arrived at where they currently are.

Do you have an example of a company that does the second well?

As far as I understand, all companies need to have a pretty solid overlap of "common opinions" or else you are going to have political deadlock.

If you have examples to the contrary I'm really curious to learn about how they worked.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#64

Post by root_axis » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

king_magic wrote: post #4

After reading everything that has come out (e.g. her email) and her history of highly toxic Twitter behavior, I honestly can't blame Google for accepting her resignation (she was not fired).

I don't buy this line. Toxic personality types are a hallmark of the technology sphere and they are typically given a free pass on such behavior in the name of meritocracy. The problem for Gebru is that her particular type of toxicity is not palatable to the entrenched culture, merit be damned.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#65

Post by devy » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

elefanten wrote: post #32

tmotwu wrote: post #18

It is unfortunate that way too many commenters on a prior threads dismissed her as a some twitter personality and trivialized her body of work in spite of the fact that she is well regarded and reputable in the ML community. It's becoming clear a rising number of her colleagues are in support of what she was seeking to publish. A reviewer on reddit mentioned the authors have plenty of time to make revisions if there…

Body of work aside, she absolutely is an aggressive-ranging-into-toxic Twitter personality and a very strident proponent of a divisive and dogmatic strain of diversity advocacy.

This above is very intolerable in Corporate America. First and foremost, she works for the corporation and get paid, no matter how great she is, she has to follow the corporate culture and norms or she won't be surviving in Corporate America.

Stanford Business School professor Jeffrey Pfeffer wrote a book about this[1] in particular.

[1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24331490-leadership-bs

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#66

Post by contemporary343 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

laretluval wrote: post #62

contemporary343 wrote: post #37

Google (and Google Brain in particular) benefited immensely from Gebru's work, and her being affiliated with them. This can be seen in how often they (including Jeff Dean) pointed to her work to show they were taking questions of fairness and bias in AI algorithms seriously. The flip side is that you have to respect the researcher, who frankly has more credibility than you do as an organization in this space. Even to…

Presumably there would have been time for discussion if the paper had not been submitted a day before the deadline.

There's still time for discussion! The paper's only in review and they would have had to make revisions anyway. I'd say it's the management that made an ultimatum to the research team.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#67

Post by dnissley » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

Tronno wrote: post #58

pinewurst wrote: post #3

I'm tired of FAANG "rallies" where the numerator is such a small percentage of the denominator. I bet one could get "hundreds" of Google employees to rally behind a flat earth and many more for the abolition of mayonnaise.

This is not a valid argument. A company's actions don't have to result in a riot to be worthy of criticism. One meaningful complaint can be enough.

This is an argument against exaggerated headlines, not against criticism of the company involved.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#68

Post by Certhas » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

tmotwu wrote: post #18

It is unfortunate that way too many commenters on a prior threads dismissed her as a some twitter personality and trivialized her body of work in spite of the fact that she is well regarded and reputable in the ML community. It's becoming clear a rising number of her colleagues are in support of what she was seeking to publish. A reviewer on reddit mentioned the authors have plenty of time to make revisions if there…

Absolutely. The supposedly objectionable tone in the EMails she posted was after leadership censored her paper in an apparently unprecedented and intransparent internal review. She has a track record of publishing peer reviewed and well received papers, and the paper in question was going through a normal peer review process when it was halted internally. To any academic the explanations of leadership are transparently absurd.

No academic of integrity could accept that as a work environment, doubly so if you were hired as Ethical AI Lead. It simply indicates to me that Google as an organisation is no longer capable of having a serious Ethical AI Lab.

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#69

Post by Cyph0n » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

dvtrn wrote: post #60

minikites wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the last time a marginalized group gained rights by asking politely?

Even when we do the response is quite often some form of "not like that" or the goalposts get moved back another 40 yards from the back of the endzone.

Heck, even kneeling during the national anthem is “too much”...

Re: Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

#70

Post by blackearl » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #2

Companies can't straddle the line. They're either going to have to go all-in on diversity, inclusion, and politics, or they're going to have to clamp down hard like Brian Armstrong. Google needs to decide what it wants to be. Given its choices, I think it's clear what they want. They just need to say it. It'll help employees and potential employees know if they want to work there.

Companies will continue to straddle the line. It's why they'll have a rainbow twitter avatar then crush a union and lobby against higher wages.