EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home • Hacker News Board

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#161

Post by allendoerfer » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 3:59 PM UTC

Protecting worker-rights was the reason why Germany's oldest democratic party SPD (and thus the base of German democracy) was founded, emerging from unions.

It totally makes sense to continue to adapt those rights to changing environments. Like the proposed "off-times" while working from home.

What I don't like is the tax-system getting ever more complicated. Now we are talking about a 600 € deductible for working from home, which is more easily attainable than the already existing deductibles for your home office. Both will exist alongside each other. Then we have deductibles for commuting to work, which of course is counter-productive to deductibles against climate-change and makes no sense combined with the deductibles for staying at home. Why deduct both possible options, if you could just lower the tax-rate?

The existence of these rules, does not make the system fairer, it just makes it more and more complicated. You will never be able to complete it. A simpler system would benefit more people. If you earn less, it's likely you won't be able to apply for all these things anyway or properly fill out your tax statements. So I think we desperately need a shift here: Abolish all of these rules, at least the ones, which are actively harmful. If you really want people to keep more of their money, lower the tax-rate!

I would also reduce worker-protections for the highest earners, especially freelancers. At some point they are just getting in your way and are not protecting you, but actively hindering your progress. So I would propose, that both parties get more freedom to design their contracts, as soon as the employee has net earnings of say the top 10% or top 5%.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#162

Post by Hamuko » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:00 PM UTC

bonestormii_ wrote: post #145

jusssi wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the difference between a junior and a senior. The latter has better expectations of what one can get done in an average workday, and the confidence to push back with "sorry, looks like this thing's more work than expected, going to need another two days for it". Btw. Looks like the Great America is woke and hates you for the word 'union' you used in your comment.

The "confidence" of senior people to push back is greatly enhanced by the fact that they won't be expediently fired for doing so. And even so, plenty of senior positions suffer from this situation as well. I'm living this hell right now.

>The "confidence" of senior people to push back is greatly enhanced by the fact that they won't be expediently fired for doing so.

There's a problem with your country if you can be fired for refusing overtime.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#163

Post by chrisdhal » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:00 PM UTC

MereInterest wrote: post #15

CommanderData wrote: post #4

Love this. I've increasingly seen and heard employers trying to take advantage of the current situation and we need more regulation and protection for workers. People are being asked to do extra and too afraid to speak out especially with so many companies making redundancies. One area of focus for me is sickness and working from home. Sick days should be about rest and recovering both physically and mentally. Often…

Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Chris…

My company doesn't have separate sick days, but you are given 5 days (40 hours) of "personal days" that are independent of your PTO. This seems like a decent compromise in the sense that I can use them as PTO without doing the "pretend to be sick" thing. These do not roll over or accumulate, so they are always the first days of "PTO" used, but they are independent of any tenure or other PTO.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#164

Post by mamon » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:01 PM UTC

hobs wrote: post #101

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like roughly the right solution. Sick days should exist to protect people who are unfortunate enough to get sick. Bad luck shouldn't cost you your pay, your job, or your holiday days. Sick days should not be a simple pool of days off that you get to treat as equivalent to holiday days. This approach has the effect of (further) rewarding people who are lucky with their health, and incentivises not taking sick da…

That's a huge waste of a doctor to get a note saying someone has the snuffles or diarrhea. In america you have to realize that getting that note would actually cost people money and time.

In Poland there are two differences:

1. Healthcare is government-sponsored, so it costs you nothing

2. There are so called "first-contact doctors", who simply specialize in everyday things like treating common cold, and in more serious cases they would just point you to another, more specialized doctor. Getting appointment on the same or next day is quite easy.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#165

Post by bobthechef » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:01 PM UTC

gtfoutttt wrote: post #115

vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

>I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Then the work doesn't get completed on time! That's bad management not hiring enough people, not the fault of the employee. SMH y'all IT people need a union.

While I sympathize with the need to push back on bad management, the situation is a bit like being between a rock (bad management) and a hard place (unions). Tyranny of the few vs. tyranny of the majority or the mob. The latter is worse.

It's also kind of a mediocre bandaid for deeper social problems. An employer that can get away with asking you to do unreasonable amounts of work, work ridiculous hours, or achieve impossible feats OR ELSE probably doesn't have much market competition.

Also a quote from C.S. Lewis:

“Of all the tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under the omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#166

Post by leetcrew » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:02 PM UTC

MereInterest wrote: post #95

leetcrew wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at a reasonable company, the person in your example would be allowed to accrue negative PTO to go on vacation with their family. there are pros and cons to merged time off. psychologically, it sucks to burn "vacation" to take time off to recover from an illness. on the flip side, there is no reason for my manager to suspect me of abusing sick leave or verify my illness (which sounds super draconian). if I'm not feeli…

In this particular trade-off, yes, you could go into negative PTO for a particular vacation. However, it is still trading a future vacation day away. I don't think there should be any verification for minor illnesses. My company has an unlimited sick leave policy, and I've never needed to do more than send a quick "I'm not feeling well, should be back tomorrow." email. One of the other commenters mentioned Norway's s…

> I don't think there should be any verification for minor illnesses. My company has an unlimited sick leave policy, and I've never needed to do more than send a quick "I'm not feeling well, should be back tomorrow." email. One of the other commenters mentioned Norway's system of having a doctor's note only after X sick days have been used, which seems reasonable.

I'm sure there are reasonable companies that make pretty much any legal arrangement work well for the employees. but I'm an anxious person, so I can't help imagining the worst possible interpretation of my actions. I feel much more comfortable taking PTO than sick leave, even though I have a trusting manager.

I understand that different people have different needs/desires regarding time off, but I personally don't take it very often. I'm glad that I can choose employment where this results in me walking away with a fairly large check at the end. I would be very much opposed to any regulation that takes this away, though I could certainly support a law that requires employers to offer a choice between merged and separate.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#167

Post by pbhjpbhj » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:02 PM UTC

stevekemp wrote: post #111

mamon wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Poland the number of sick days is unlimited but you need a form filled by an actual MD in order to claim it. Vacation days are separate pool.

In the UK you'd generally be trusted for 1-2 days. If you said you were (still) sick for 3+ days you'd need some kind of doctor's note. Though these are easy to receive - the hardest part is usually getting an appointment in a hurry.

Isn't it still a bit of a fiction, you tell the doctor you have $ailment and then they write a note. If it's a bad stomach flu, your likely on the last day of it by the time you see the doctor anyway. The system inherently needs trust.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#168

Post by WanderPanda » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

allendoerfer wrote: post #161

Protecting worker-rights was the reason why Germany's oldest democratic party SPD (and thus the base of German democracy) was founded, emerging from unions. It totally makes sense to continue to adapt those rights to changing environments. Like the proposed "off-times" while working from home. What I don't like is the tax-system getting ever more complicated. Now we are talking about a 600 € deductible for working fr…

I generally agree with you but I don‘t like the > I would also reduce worker-protections for the highest earners, especially freelancers.

It should be for all freelancers or for none. Otherwise a situation like with the „accredited investor“ is created which is harming poorer but responsible people from taking opportunities.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#169

Post by Lariscus » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:05 PM UTC

allendoerfer wrote: post #161

Protecting worker-rights was the reason why Germany's oldest democratic party SPD (and thus the base of German democracy) was founded, emerging from unions. It totally makes sense to continue to adapt those rights to changing environments. Like the proposed "off-times" while working from home. What I don't like is the tax-system getting ever more complicated. Now we are talking about a 600 € deductible for working fr…

Remove workers protections from freelancers and suddenly there are no more normal jobs available. No thanks, companies already try to game the system that way and this would only make it worse.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#170

Post by Hamuko » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:05 PM UTC

Mauricebranagh wrote: post #100

aminozuur wrote: post #32

What about the employees who are happy to stay ready 'on-call', in a position where they are payed more then they've ever made? Could the employee make an agreement with his/her employer, or would such an agreement be deemed 'unlawful' under the new law?

I know that in one bit UK company being on call was seen as a perk as you got paid a retainer and TOIL at OT rates Some Mainframe DBA's where on 4in4 and where called 2 3 times year. I also heard of some one who worked two shifts for an extended period at PRESTEL

I've heard that if you get paid collective agreement rates for on-call IT work in Finland, you're looking at quite a nice bonus to your paycheck. There's however a clause in the collective agreement that allows for employers and employees to agree to different rates, so not all on-call work gets it.