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EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

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Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#151

Post by pc86 »

mamon wrote: post #147
pc86 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that but how many people can get into a doctor the same day for the note? If they get sick on Monday you're potentially forcing someone to choose between unpaid time off, burning a day of PTO, or going into the doctor's office Wednesday or Thursday (if they're lucky) and saying "I feel find but had a cold Monday, can I get a note?" And how to juggle the logistics of that Wed/Thur doctor's visit with work? I…

> Not only that but how many people can get into a doctor the same day for the note? No, it doesn't work like that in Poland. You can just call it in, saying "I'm sick" and then go to the doctor. Doctor's note can cover up to 3 days before the visit.

I've occasionally been able to get in same day in the US but it's certainly the exception (and I don't live in/near a major metro). A week or more to see a GP wouldn't be uncommon.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#152

Post by refurb »

cyphar wrote: post #50
maxerickson wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other side of it, it's nice to get the time off even if you don't get sick. Companies will tend to argue that sick time is only for when you are sick.

Does the US not have guaranteed vacation days? Here in Australia all non-casual workers must be given 20 days off a year (which in my view is actually too little -- in Europe workers get even more guaranteed days off). EDIT: This doesn't count public holidays, we have 10 or so public holidays (depending on your state) in addition to your vacation days.

I don't think the EU and US count them the same. It looks like the EU minimum includes banks holidays? Where US vacation days don't include them.

"By law, every country in the European Union has at least four work weeks of paid vacation. Austria, which guarantees workers the most time off, has a legal minimum of 22 paid vacation days and 13 paid holidays each year."

So the US has no minimum, but the minimum offered is typically 10 days and the a middle class job 15 days. On top of that you get at least 10 federal holidays off (or you get paid 2x if you work). Many companies recognize 13+ "official days off".

So most US employees (there are exceptions) get ~20 days off a year, while for middle class it's more typical to get closer to 25-30. (15 + 13)

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#153

Post by lotu »

d33 wrote: post #105

> To date, workers in Germany can only write off work costs at home if they can prove they have one room in their household dedicated solely to work. How does one prove they don't use the room for anything else? Webcam recording throughout the month? Also, this kind of deduction favors the rich as the poor can't afford having one room just for that.

More suburban than rich. I seen million dollar NYC apartments that where it doesn't make sense to have separate room for work and the work "room" is more of wide hallway combined with the kid's beds.

A more fair options would be to still allow the room option for simplicity but also allow you to deduct things by the square foot so even if your office is just a corner it could count, though that is really mushy and people don't like mushy tax laws.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#154

Post by avianlyric »

mikem170 wrote: post #53
matsemann wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better: Sick days shouldn't be a pool at all. In Norway there's X amount of sick days one can use without any hassle (all paid), to use any more all you have to do is show a doctors note. If you have to use more than Y amount of days (chronic illness, a more serious thing or something), the government will temporarily take on the responsibility of paying the worker's wages. I don't think people should be punishe…

Do people pretend to be sick to use up their X days? Many people want to have as many days off as they can. If so, you could be in the same situation, call in saying your sick to use all your days then really get sick at the end of the year. If the answer is no, perhaps that is due to cultural differences. It's my impression that folks in Norway are more responsible in many regards compared to Americans.

My go to answer to questions like this is pretty simple.

We shouldn’t punish the majority for the indiscretions of the few.

Ultimately some people will abuse sick leave, just like everything else in life. But those individuals should be dealt with on a individual basis.

Otherwise you just end up treating everyone like a criminal, at which point for an individual there’s no advantage to not engaging in abusive behaviour. You’re already effectively being punished for potential abusive behaviour, might as well make the most of it and actually engage in the abusive behaviour you’re being punished for.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#155

Post by slykar »

cutitout wrote: post #94

I'm very happy to see that the German tax break is basically the opposite of what Deutsche Bank Research suggested, namely extra taxes for people who WFH, because they "contribute less public transport and the economy", and should "pay a tax for that privilege". They suggested the employer pay it, but still. https://www.handelsblatt.com/finanzen/banken-versicherungen/...

Lol. Less transport = less wear on the extra expensive roads. Less pollution, less crowd, less money for oil industry. If anything, people should be blessed and get tax returns for WFH.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#156

Post by claudiawerner »

stevekemp wrote: post #111
mamon wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Poland the number of sick days is unlimited but you need a form filled by an actual MD in order to claim it. Vacation days are separate pool.

In the UK you'd generally be trusted for 1-2 days. If you said you were (still) sick for 3+ days you'd need some kind of doctor's note. Though these are easy to receive - the hardest part is usually getting an appointment in a hurry.

That's not true, as far as I know (and only because I looked this up when I worried about it). You get up to and including 7 days and you shouldn't have to give a note. From gov.uk[0]:

>If employees are off work for 7 days or less, they do not need to give their employer a fit note or other proof of sickness from a medical professional.

>When they return to work, their employer can ask them to confirm they’ve been off sick. This is called ‘self-certification’. The employer and employee will agree on how the employee should do this. They might need to fill in a form or send details of their sick leave by email.

[0] https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#157

Post by Delk »

hobs wrote: post #101
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like roughly the right solution. Sick days should exist to protect people who are unfortunate enough to get sick. Bad luck shouldn't cost you your pay, your job, or your holiday days. Sick days should not be a simple pool of days off that you get to treat as equivalent to holiday days. This approach has the effect of (further) rewarding people who are lucky with their health, and incentivises not taking sick da…

That's a huge waste of a doctor to get a note saying someone has the snuffles or diarrhea. In america you have to realize that getting that note would actually cost people money and time.

Where I live, you can stay at home due to illness for 3 days or so (varies a little) before a doctor's note is required. Often a mild common cold or a diarrhea will ameliorate within a few days.

It still feels stupid every time you get past that threshold and still aren't quite healthy enough for work because the cold is just taking a bit longer this time, and you have to go see a doctor just to get the note.

Usually employers are paying for basic healthcare, so you wouldn't be paying for the doctor's visit yourself. But of course somebody's still paying, and it is a bit of a waste in cases where medical attention would not be actually needed. But it's not like you have to do that every time; you can compromise by trusting people for a couple of days before requiring that. It's all about compromise.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#158

Post by [deleted] »

vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

[deleted]

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#159

Post by MereInterest »

wincy wrote: post #89
mikem170 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do people pretend to be sick to use up their X days? Many people want to have as many days off as they can. If so, you could be in the same situation, call in saying your sick to use all your days then really get sick at the end of the year. If the answer is no, perhaps that is due to cultural differences. It's my impression that folks in Norway are more responsible in many regards compared to Americans.

I have merged PTO but generally there’s an expectation that you plan in advance for vacation. So if I’m just having a shitty day even if there’s nothing physically wrong with me I’ll take PTO and say I’m “not feeling great”. Manager has never complained about it, always a “feel better”. It’s not a lie but then the next day at standup I make sure to say how much better I’m feeling. I strongly suspect all my coworkers…

This ends up being a bigger push, but I would say that it is perfectly reasonable to take a sick day for mental health reasons. Especially in knowledge-based jobs, there's no point in me trying to push for results that will need to be re-checked the next day when in a better spot.

There's also a lot of interplay between mental and physical health. For my part, it is pretty straight-forward, that if I have a more stressful day, I will get a migraine, and need to spend several hours in a dark room. If I feel the edge of a migraine coming on, it is better for me to pre-emptively cancel meetings and take a nap rather than waiting for it to be so bad that I am forced to.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#160

Post by slykar »

fmfam wrote: post #12

I've been working from home for 15 years and such articles make me laughing. Media simply try to fill the vacuum they are in and their efforts are simply ridiculous.

I kind of feel you, but those people are new to this (employers and employees). They have no idea what they are doing, they are scared and they want someone to resolve this issue for them. Any experienced person just turns off their phone or snoozes notifications. People have flex working hours and some co-workers send me messages at 1 am. Should they go to jail or what? Everything could be solved with a little bit of education.
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