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Drone Footage of Arecibo Observatory Collapse

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Re: Drone Footage of Arecibo Observatory Collapse

#231
post #221
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drones were being used by the engineers on site who to monitor things and help plan for the intended demolition. It was more or less pure luck that one happened to be there at the time it happened. Unfortunately for the viewing public it was facing the wrong way for the spectacle, but it'll probably be a fixture in engineering classrooms for years to come as a real world example of cable failure caught on video f…

Some neat things going on there regarding the cable. If I see it correctly, it looks like a few fibers snap at 0:02. Then nothing happens until 0:05. Stepping frame by frame with comma and period, it seems like a few more fibers snap, after which the strain is too much and the cable just explodes. Cable number 2 goes in a more gradual way. And on cable 3 there is a prominent wave before it falls to the ground.

I noticed this too. Even though it was facing the wrong way, I think engineering classes will still find it valuable to dissect the first and second order effects on these cables over time

Re: Drone Footage of Arecibo Observatory Collapse

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very similar event was depicted in Battlefield 4, surprisingly accurately as it turns out: https://youtu.be/KiOQdVvGdQE?t=38

Can anyone please characterize that accent/cadence to me?!? It reminds me very strongly of an accent I've been hearing on tech support telephone call frequently in the past 5 years but never recalled hearing before that. I have a pet theory that it's actually from a new technique for more rapidly teaching intelligible English pronunciation to folks learning it as a second language. But maybe it's just an accent from…

100% Dutch accent. I wish we could pin it down to a teaching technique, this is just how we sound.

Re: Drone Footage of Arecibo Observatory Collapse

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could build an entirely new one from scratch if we decided to manufacture one less F-35.

Well, the F-35 is actually a useful instrument which maintains US hegemony. A better comparison would be the movie Cats, which had a budget of 95 million, and serves no purpose to society.

What we need is to get scientific instruments categorized as artwork.

You can buy arecibo for $120M. You can't do anything with it, and you give it on loan to the NSF. Then eventually you can transfer it to somebody else.

Re: Drone Footage of Arecibo Observatory Collapse

#235
post #230

So how much is it going to cost to completely clean up the structure as compared to how much it would have cost to properly maintain it?

This is what I'm wondering as well. Who is in charge of cleaning this up and restoring the gaping wound in this ecosystem?

Re: Drone Footage of Arecibo Observatory Collapse

#236
post #84
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's your copy of the video

It is, but I don't get anything from hosting it, It's not monetised. I kept getting timeouts on the actual site, and the sharing URL was nasty long (I wanted to share it to friends). I did credit them in the video description. I was only trying to help.

No problem, I just thought it was a pertinent piece of information. Next time I'll keep it to myself I guess.

Re: Drone Footage of Arecibo Observatory Collapse

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any urge to point out that, sometime in the future, someone will make the same noises about their work? :-)

The thing with Arecibo it's not the design you want in in a microwave observatory at all. Same as the Space Shuttle which spent decades siphoning off a good chunk of of the budget for space stuff. It was white elephant.

You may know two people who have no use for Arecibo, but I know of many many more people who know the actual capabilities of Arecibo and know just how impactful the loss is, and that's just on the science side. The telescope also served as a gateway and source of inspiration for many young students in Puerto Rico. The Observatory ran many STEM related outreach programs over the years, with far reaching impacts.

The entire field of Planetary Astronomy has lost one of the best instruments for Earth-based observation of planetary objects in our solar system. Additionally, our capabilities for observing near-Earth asteroids has been been diminished, with Goldstone being the next most capable though it's sensitivity is nearly 20x lower than that of Arecibo.

FAST can perform some of the same science Arecibo can, but there's still a fair amount that can't. It's frequency range only goes up to 3GHz, which is only a third of what Arecibo's range was. Off-zenith, it's illumination area was only 25m in diameter larger (off-zenith it's beam was only 300m compared to Arecibo's 275m) so for most cases it's gain factor isn't substantially larger that Arecibo. Additionally, it's focal platform is much smaller, leading to less flexibility, though it's reduced frequency range does mean it needs fewer receivers to cover that range.

I think characterizing Arecibo as a microwave observatory is not correct. While AO did observe between 3 & 10GHz, that's only a tiny portion of the Microwave spectrum. AO's design was adequate for it's purpose, though clearly a newer redesign would make plenty of sense.

A white elephant it was not. It had modest budget needs compared to many other facilities. It's base operating costs was around 10 Million USD. For more serious maintenance efforts, it needed supplemental funds. However, it's been operating below that since NSF Astronomy started dialing back funding in the late 2000s.

NASA and NSF Atmospherics stepped in with additional funding as NSF Astro stepped back, but that still just met the operating costs and left little on the table for larger maintenance efforts.

Like many have said, the time for major maintenance was a decade ago, however, the funds weren't there, and neither was the knowledge that anything was wrong with the primary cables. All inspections performed showed no indication of major problems. We now know that the cables were not performing to the designed ratings, but hindsight is always 20/20.

Re: Drone Footage of Arecibo Observatory Collapse

#238
post #11

Is the loss of Arecibo a big blow to the scientific community? I was of the impression that Arecibo was long past it's heyday and in general that large arrays of smaller receivers were now considered superior.

I work at UW astronomy. It’s mostly symbolic. The main capability loss is that Arecibo was able to transmit, which is unique at its size. As an example, that was useful to rescue the ISEE-3 explorer when it passed through a comet trail in the 1980s. Only Arecibo was powerful enough to blast a radio message through the comet trail. (PDF reference: https://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report/42-84/84T.PDF ) Arecibo was…

This statement ignores the fact that the radar capability put Arecibo in it's on class when it comes to Planetary Astronomy.

The capability to study near-Earth Asteroids and perform radar observations of the Moon and other large objects in our Solar System has definitely been diminished with this loss. Even Goldstone, the next most powerful radar telescope, is 20x less sensitive.

Not to mention the pairing of Arecibo's radars with the LIDAR system and it's HF Ionospheric heater system. I don't think saying Arecibo was not the only observatory in it's class is being rather disingenuous.

Re: Drone Footage of Arecibo Observatory Collapse

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at UW astronomy. It’s mostly symbolic. The main capability loss is that Arecibo was able to transmit, which is unique at its size. As an example, that was useful to rescue the ISEE-3 explorer when it passed through a comet trail in the 1980s. Only Arecibo was powerful enough to blast a radio message through the comet trail. (PDF reference: https://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report/42-84/84T.PDF ) Arecibo was…

Asking as a non-astronomer: my understanding is that other telescopes in this class are synthetic/multiple aperture, and not single-aperture like Arecibo (with a small number of exceptions, like FAST). Is there any science you can do on extremely-large single-aperture telescopes that you can't do on comparable synthetic/multiple aperture telescopes?

I studied pulsars in University and worked with Arecibo, Green Bank, did some data analysis with VLA, and worked on some undergrad projects using low frequency arrays.

The details get complex, but the gist of it is that arrays let you see bright small scale things, while single aperture telescopes let you see large scale that are dim.

Additionally, an array suffers with sensitivity and noise issues if they don't have enough antennas covering discrete distance pairings. This usually occurs at short baselines since array elements often have a minimum spacing. Single aperture telescopes have a large instantaneous gain factor due to their large collecting area, which is really hard to make up without an exceedingly large number of array elements. For example, Arecibo has the same collecting area as ~148 VLA dishes.

Data handling for an array is complex as well, as you need to mix and process the data from each telescope to sync them together (correlation), while a single aperture telescope doesn't need this step.

On the other hand, an array is generally much less sensitive to instrument noise as the cumulative signal means noise from a single array element has a much lower impact overall. Also, it generally dodges the single-point failure modes by being essentially redundant. You can still operate with one or more elements missing/out of action.

Each telescope type has it's pros and cons, and there are equally valid use cases for each one.

One thing that I imagine is quite difficult to perform on an array is the type of planetary radar Arecibo specialized in by nature of it's high-power S-Band radar (2.38GHz). With AO's S-Band radar, it was possible to get highly detailed imaging and orbital parameters of near-Earth Asteroids with short observations, while determining orbital parameters with optical observations can take numerous observations (and doesn't generally give you the same detailed 3d models). NASA's Goldstone Observatory is the next best telescope for this, but is nearly 20x less sensitive due to it's size and different operating frequency.

Re: Drone Footage of Arecibo Observatory Collapse

#240

And every time I see it, my heart aches for the science. RIP Arecibo, you did not deserve this fate.

Why not? Should we pour money into antiquated and inefficient designs at the expense of newer designs that will be far more effective?

That's the rub. Yes it wasn't a streamline design, but rather the result of a series of upgrades over the decades, but it was still producing important and meaningful science.

A full refit of Arecibo (obviously while it was still in one piece of course) would have likely been much cheaper than building an entirely new telescope.

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