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Web Scraping Is Vital to Democracy

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Re: Web Scraping Is Vital to Democracy

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please explain how you got to that conclusion?

Not OP, but it's very hard to intercept and monitor the traffic of an app that uses code signing, obfuscation and certificate pinning properly. What used to be a five minute "put tcpdump on the access point / router to work" job pre-HTTPS everywhere now is a many days worth job of messing around - out of reach for all but the really dedicated, and as a result it is very hard for an user to have actual visibility over…

[deleted]

Re: Web Scraping Is Vital to Democracy

#22
post #12
post #8

This article focuses a lot on _good_ of web-scraping but I don't think we even need to go that far. Fight against web-scrapers just seems like a complete logical oxymoron: they want data to be public but also select who gets to see it. Our whole web infrastructure are based around clearly distinct public/private exchanges - there's no middleground this and yet people create these absurd hacks like captchas and finger…

>"a complete logical oxymoron: they want data to be public but also select who gets to see it." I think you're proving too much here. Your argument applies to all published authors, and would strike a crippling blow to their copyright.

But published authors don't have control over who gets to see their work -- only who gets to profit from it (distribution rights, not use rights).

Re: Web Scraping Is Vital to Democracy

#24
post #8

This article focuses a lot on _good_ of web-scraping but I don't think we even need to go that far. Fight against web-scrapers just seems like a complete logical oxymoron: they want data to be public but also select who gets to see it. Our whole web infrastructure are based around clearly distinct public/private exchanges - there's no middleground this and yet people create these absurd hacks like captchas and finger…

You just state that "there is no middle ground", then go on describing instances of what arguably is "middle ground" as "absurd hacks". What's it gonna be? There's a POV that, on the internet, "anything goes", i. e. whatever you can do, you're allowed to do. Then, there's a perspective that works a lot like the offline world, where any clear communication that a reasonable person would understand as denying them acce…

I think a closer "offline world" analogy would be if a magazine tried to enforce rules to what you can do with it after it was delivered.

Re: Web Scraping Is Vital to Democracy

#26
post #20

I think of web scraping as nothing less than automation of human work. There really is no hacking or unauthorized access involved. It's either me, using a browser, to read something publicly accessible on the internet, or it's my computer, which I've programmed to read those things for me, so I can focus on creative work or spend time with friends and family. This applies not only to personal life, but businesses as…

While I have substantial agreement with your point of view, when web content is substantially ad-funded, automated scraping effectively bypasses the “payment”.

I say this as someone who runs an adblocker, installs them for family, and doesn’t derive income from hosting ads, so I’m not pro-ad; I just realize that while it’s not a crime for me to dump the whole bowl of waiting room candies into my backpack, that’s going to be frowned upon.

Re: Web Scraping Is Vital to Democracy

#27
post #20

I think of web scraping as nothing less than automation of human work. There really is no hacking or unauthorized access involved. It's either me, using a browser, to read something publicly accessible on the internet, or it's my computer, which I've programmed to read those things for me, so I can focus on creative work or spend time with friends and family. This applies not only to personal life, but businesses as…

While I have substantial agreement with your point of view, when web content is substantially ad-funded, automated scraping effectively bypasses the “payment”. I say this as someone who runs an adblocker, installs them for family, and doesn’t derive income from hosting ads, so I’m not pro-ad; I just realize that while it’s not a crime for me to dump the whole bowl of waiting room candies into my backpack, that’s goin…

This is orthogonal to the purpose of scraping.

If I run a search engine which potentially links real human eyes back to you, then should I pay the "ad" toll as well?

I don't believe so.

I do believe there is an agreeable middle-ground, but Google walked away from that conversation years ago.

Re: Web Scraping Is Vital to Democracy

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please explain how you got to that conclusion?

Not OP, but it's very hard to intercept and monitor the traffic of an app that uses code signing, obfuscation and certificate pinning properly. What used to be a five minute "put tcpdump on the access point / router to work" job pre-HTTPS everywhere now is a many days worth job of messing around - out of reach for all but the really dedicated, and as a result it is very hard for an user to have actual visibility over…

Does that really matter though? Isn't the proper way to evaluate what data is being shared to assume each app exploits its permissions up to the level of trust you have in the company that provided it? Eg. if you worry Facebook is stealing your contact list, then if their app has that permission, you should assume they are stealing it. No need to bother checking if they actually are. They might do it when you're not looking anyway.

As for data being sent from your device to 3rd parties, again, if you don't trust the app's developer not do to that, you also won't trust them not to be sharing it from their end where you have no way to look at the traffic.

Re: Web Scraping Is Vital to Democracy

#29
post #7

"In both of those instances, the pages and data scraped are publicly available on the internet-no hacking necessary-but sites involved could easily change the fine print on their terms of service to label the aggregation of that information "unauthorized."" They could. But if they filed a claim under the CFAA without ever sending a cease and desist letter to the alleged intruder, I think the claim would be dismissed.…

So robots.txt has no meaning?

I think the main issue is with scrapers that don't adhere to robots.txt/X-robot headers.

Re: Web Scraping Is Vital to Democracy

#30
We use scrapers to wrap and combine 3rd party tools and increase the usability and decrease amount of work required to get something done.

Sometimes to do some task at a 3rd party tool, it requires many clicks and page loads. My scraper wrapping the tool automates most of the task and only keeps the manual task, reducing the amount of required clicks (and time) required to get the task done.

I use a mix of headless browsers (for JS-heavy apps) and raw API calls. Sometimes I even use the browser to login, trigger a single sample APi call, extract all headers and content, close the browser, and re-run that api call directly using a HTTP lib. The request body obviously gets modified on the user’s requirements. We’re bypassing the slow login process as long as the session is valid. We’re also sharing sessions/logins/accounts this way without exposing credentials to users.

It can also be done to bypass the only-one-session-per-user systems. This is done with permission from 3rd parties. They’re fine with it, they just didn’t want to provide a proper API or let us bypass the only-one-session rule because it requires code changes they’re not willing to make only for us.

Sometimes the tool breaks when the html Or api changes but it usually only takes a few minutes to modify the code to fix it.

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