AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google • Hacker News Board

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#731

Post by tdeck » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:35 AM UTC

powersnail wrote: post #586

jsmith45 wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds to me like Google has a policy that papers must be internally reviewed before they can be "published". She understood publish in the academic sense, while Google views sending the paper out for conference review as publishing. The paper ends up failing internal review, so per policy it must be promptly retracted. This is confusing to the academic who expects to get access to the raw review responses so that…

While there hasn't been enough evidence to fully condemn either side, I disagree that this is just poor communication. Unless Google deliberately changed the enforcement of the policy just to mess with her, she should have known the policy. It doesn't seem to be a complicated process, and 2 weeks is a reasonably short time to wait. On the other side, Google has been in this game long enough, that they must know a pap…

In any large company there are lots of process rules and internal deadlines that are unrealistic for whatever reason and don't get followed in practice, leading to many last-minute exceptions. I don't know about the specific case of research papers, but if would not surprise me at all if "one day before the deadline" were a common submission timeframe at Google. Of course that not ideal and probably sucks for the team in charge of reviewing these things, but in that context it wouldn't be such a "damning" piece of evidence against her and the other researchers.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#732

Post by dash2 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:38 AM UTC

I am not very sympathetic with Timnit Gebru in this affair. At the same time, I am discouraged by the number of comments here that go over the top, fail to recognise nuance and uncertainty, and engage in name-calling (“virtue-signalling SJW” and so forth).

A plague on both your houses!

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#733

Post by rishav_sharan » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:40 AM UTC

jsmith45 wrote: post #486

sjs382 wrote: post #397

It's hard to make too much sense about what happened. Here's what I made of it, if anyone can point out any important mistakes/inaccuracies/details: 1. She and her co-authors submitted a paper for review 1 day before its (external, for publication?) due date. It's supposed to be submitted to Google 2 weeks prior, so they can review. 2. The authors submitted it externally before the review was returned. 3. Google deci…

It sounds to me like Google has a policy that papers must be internally reviewed before they can be "published". She understood publish in the academic sense, while Google views sending the paper out for conference review as publishing. The paper ends up failing internal review, so per policy it must be promptly retracted. This is confusing to the academic who expects to get access to the raw review responses so that…

I don't think it's miscommunication in anyway. Timnit had submitted dozens of papers before and unless the process requirements are completely new, she would be well aware of them. This seems more of a case of selective enforcement, where she had been allowed to go around the process in the past (or felt that she has enough leverage to be able to do so now) and then not being allowed to do so this time.

This feels like a classic privileged tantrum which has blown up in the face because Google refused to bend this time.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#734

Post by wonnage » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:40 AM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #681

wonnage wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understand the word "forced"... did Twitter delete his account? Congratulations on blaming the victim. This is what POC in tech deal with every day.

> POC in tech deal with every day. Why even repeat such an absurd lie? Surely you don’t actually believe it yourself.

What makes you think it's a lie?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#735

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:41 AM UTC

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #628

wonnage wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please share why you think a person who was hired to address race/gender bias in AI writing a paper about race/gender bias in AI is tending to "bring race/gender into anything and everything"? Or let's cut to the chase, you saw the headline, and your immediate conclusion was this was a raging SJW. Why did you jump to that conclusion?

I am trying to get away from mind reading and assuming I know why others say and do things. Would you be interested in joining me in that?

[deleted]

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#736

Post by LordFast » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:41 AM UTC

jsmith45 wrote: post #486

sjs382 wrote: post #397

It's hard to make too much sense about what happened. Here's what I made of it, if anyone can point out any important mistakes/inaccuracies/details: 1. She and her co-authors submitted a paper for review 1 day before its (external, for publication?) due date. It's supposed to be submitted to Google 2 weeks prior, so they can review. 2. The authors submitted it externally before the review was returned. 3. Google deci…

It sounds to me like Google has a policy that papers must be internally reviewed before they can be "published". She understood publish in the academic sense, while Google views sending the paper out for conference review as publishing. The paper ends up failing internal review, so per policy it must be promptly retracted. This is confusing to the academic who expects to get access to the raw review responses so that…

Me thinks it's a common misconception for strongly opinionated people to believe that companies want to hire them in order for them to "fix things and make the company a better place".

In reality, what every company/team/management wants is someone who will give them some constructive criticism on small mistakes here and there that are easy to fix, but ultimately act as a supportive shield for the company against /other/ criticisms. The more credible that someone is, the better, and the more sophisticated that act of supportive shielding is, the better.

In exchange, the company provides support, financial or otherwise, for that someone's personal career ambitions in becoming rich and famous themselves.

Anyone else see it this way? Or am I just too jaded these days?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#737

Post by dash2 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:42 AM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #699

gonehome wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can read the thread for themselves and decide. I see a quote tweet from Timnit with "I'm sick of this framing...listen to us", then misquoting what he said. Ignoring his replies and then following up with "I'm disengaging for my sanity...not worth my time...Maybe your colleagues will try to educate you..." etc. She attacks him (so he replies) and then she ignores him and talks down to him. I don't have a dog i…

Yes, you've made your position clear. I'm simply asking that you acknowledge that not everyone agrees with you, instead of making sweeping statements that no matter your opinion, Timnit was "obnoxious". You have your view of the events, I'm not trying to convince you to change it. I'm simply saying that other people disagree. No need to continue to try and justify yourself.

I think the quotes given are persuasive evidence, though. “I’m disengaging for my sanity”?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#738

Post by wonnage » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:44 AM UTC

anonvenger wrote: post #680

wonnage wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is what HN has devolved to, calling a leading Ethical AI researcher a douche!

While there is some overlap, generally speaking Identity Politics != Ethics. She's an Identity Politics researcher, narrowly focused on race and gender topics. Not some philosopher or religious figure interested in the flourishing of humanity at large. Here is an abstract from a larger work, presumably her PhD thesis: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1908.06165.pdf . Critical gender and race theory through and through.

You're trying to discredit her for... writing a well-sourced paper on race & gender discrimination in AI.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#739

Post by wonnage » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:45 AM UTC

1024core wrote: post #716

wonnage wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is what HN has devolved to, calling a leading Ethical AI researcher a douche!

You can be both a brilliant scientist (I'm not claiming Gebru is one) and a douche. They're not exclusive.

Oh sure, Yann LeCun is a douche too. But you pick him to defend and her to call names.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#740

Post by ehsankia » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 5:48 AM UTC

1024core wrote: post #625

wonnage wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're commenting on an article where a person was fired due to being a racial/gender justice advocate, and you're worried about "Even being accused of being racist can ruin someone's career in this current climate" ???

> a person was fired due to being a racial/gender justice advocate Nope, they were fired for being a douche.

While they were a jerk, it actually was far more specific than that. According to Jeff's response, first they bypassed a 2-week review process:

> Unfortunately, this particular paper was only shared with a day’s notice before its deadline — we require two weeks for this sort of review — and then instead of awaiting reviewer feedback, it was approved for submission and submitted.

Then, when called out on it, they made "an ultimatum" and said they would leave if certain demands weren't met. I'm not sure what every demand was, but one of them was indeed disclosing the name of the reviewers.

> Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback. Timnit wrote that if we didn’t meet these demands, she would leave Google and work on an end date.

Jeff declined to meet the conditions, and let them go. Seems pretty straight forward to me.