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AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

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Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#581

Post by Natsu »

fatnoah wrote: post #6

> And you are told after a while, that your manager can read you a privileged and confidential document and you’re not supposed to even know who contributed to this document, who wrote this feedback, what process was followed or anything Interesting. Having been on the receiving end of a (later proven to be bogus) HR complaint, this is exactly how it was handled. I was forced to respond to allegations where neither t…

Weird, when I complained about a coworker putting their hands down my pants at work, I was dragged into the same room with them without notice.

Fortunately, said person accidentally admitted to doing it, after changing their story a few times, and was summarily fired.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#583

Post by rbanffy »

hintymad wrote: post #547
1024core wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was discussed on HN a few months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23696427 Basically (to summarize a lot), his point was: an ML model is only as good as the data you feed it. If, say, the photos for your face recognition model are only of white men, then obviously the model will do well on white men, while (possibly) not doing as well on other races or genders. This is a statement of fact, and nothing con…

That LeCunn needed to defend his own character out of such simple discussion shows everything that's wrong with the US' progressive culture.

She was never uncivil and she pointed out a series of issues, from what she believed was imprecise in his argument, to the societal issues that caused her to be viciously attacked by other people for engaging in the discussion.

Other people questioned whether data only can be accountable for the biases and were not subjected to the kind of vitriol she was. The fact I am a white cishet male shields me from a lot of misdirected anger.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#584

Post by suifbwish »

rbanffy wrote: post #564
suifbwish wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a big problem that in our current political climate people with those types of built in personal issues float to the top. Gender and race should only be brought up if there is evidence that someone is being discriminated against or harassed based on those traits. I see all kinds of articles immediately pulling race and gender into the equation and it’s dangerous and dishonest because it robs credibility from si…

It's incredibly hard to prove discrimination or harassment was based on ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, or political views, even when it is. You say "people with those types of built in personal issues float to the top" aren't you implying their positions are not earned based on merit and, therefore, that they are less competent than their peers?

I am implying that they often scare away their competition by attacking the character of the individuals who they work with, rather than focusing on true accomplishments that would give them legitimate merit for the positions they aspire to. Their supervisors can even be intimidated into promoting them if they have a history of filing complaints of discrimination when things don’t go their way.

It’s also possible that some promotions/hires are based on desired political appearance of the company. Promoting someone based on certain race and gender types ironically makes your company seem less racist and sexist to the casual outside observer.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#585

Post by kristjansson »

antiquark wrote: post #433
adamsea wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO she is saying it’s reasonable to believe that social and systemic issues have an impact on creating ML models (as the teams designing, building, and deploying said models are members of society) in ways in addition to the data sets. I don’t know what the right answer is but plenty of institutions come up with ways they attempt to deal with systemic biases. For example, blind auditions for positions in orchestras…

Sure, but Yann LeCun is a neural network expert. Should it be his job to tackle social/systemic/institutional problems? What if he doesn't want to?

I think the point was reciting the (true!) 'biased datasets create biased models' argument at best avoids, and at worst actively undermines those bigger questions.

Someone in another thread on this had IMO a great comment[1] summarizing the sentiment:

> If you are going to say "Well, garbage-in, garbage-out!", why do you keep putting the racist garbage in?

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25286446

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#586

Post by powersnail »

jsmith45 wrote: post #486
sjs382 wrote: post #397

It's hard to make too much sense about what happened. Here's what I made of it, if anyone can point out any important mistakes/inaccuracies/details: 1. She and her co-authors submitted a paper for review 1 day before its (external, for publication?) due date. It's supposed to be submitted to Google 2 weeks prior, so they can review. 2. The authors submitted it externally before the review was returned. 3. Google deci…

It sounds to me like Google has a policy that papers must be internally reviewed before they can be "published". She understood publish in the academic sense, while Google views sending the paper out for conference review as publishing. The paper ends up failing internal review, so per policy it must be promptly retracted. This is confusing to the academic who expects to get access to the raw review responses so that…

While there hasn't been enough evidence to fully condemn either side, I disagree that this is just poor communication.

Unless Google deliberately changed the enforcement of the policy just to mess with her, she should have known the policy. It doesn't seem to be a complicated process, and 2 weeks is a reasonably short time to wait.

On the other side, Google has been in this game long enough, that they must know a paper can be updated in this case. So there wouldn't be a misunderstanding there, either.

What exactly happened is unclear so far. But I doubt it will come down to just a series of misunderstanding.

On a side note, I suspect that working research for a company with a conflicting interest in the same area is generally a bad idea. At some point, the dilemma of either leaving or stopping caring about it would present itself.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#587

Post by screye »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #408
contemporary343 wrote: post #292

It looks like the paper was critical of large language models: https://www.fastcompany.com/90582375/timnit-gebru-google-fir... The original article has been updated with Jeff Dean's response, while a member of Gebru's team (who still works at Google Brain) states that Dean's email is misleading and inaccurate: https://twitter.com/alexhanna/status/1334579764573691904 As I understand it: The paper had already been subm…

What I don't understand is why nobody discusses this from the point of view of academic freedom and research integrity. My boss says "retract your paper" and I retract my paper? In what dystopian sci-fi novel? That's just mad.

Censorship is a double edged sword that way. Over the last few years, many acclaimed journalists have been censored for not falling in line with the woke agenda. Threatening livelihoods is the prime tool of extortion by cancel culturists. (on either side)

To some extent, you have to realize that one day you will fall on the wrong side on the fence and you'll be the victim of your own creation.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#588

Post by TheMagicHorsey »

1024core wrote: post #449

This person forced Yann LeCun (one of the top 3 AI/ML researchers today, head of Facebook AI, and an ML researcher since the 80s) to give up on Twitter after she took exception to this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1274782757907030016 She lives her life attacking people who she disagrees with, and brings in race/gender into any conflict where she's involved. I am surprised Google had hired her, beca…

I'm always hearing tales of how insane Google's social justice warrior culture has become ... but I'm always hearing these stories from White, Asian, or Indian males. I wonder how bad it actually is in reality.

The picture insiders paint is that of organizations infested with technically mediocre people who form cliques that provide air cover for each others mediocrity ... with sex and race providing a disincentive for management to take action.

I wonder how accurate that is ... one explanation for the stories could just be that a lot of disgruntled males are unhappy with competition.

On the other hand, if it was true and I was a high performance underrepresented minority, there's no way I'd go to Google. Wouldn't people just assume I'm there because of quota filling, instead of my actual performance?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#589

Post by aparsons »

contemporary343 wrote: post #110
aparsons wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She claims to be a leading researcher in the field, but has she written any significant papers or research of note? Her biggest accomplishment seems to be driving Yann LeCunn off Twitter with angry accusations. She tried to continue her power trip at a workplace but her boss called her bluff. This is a great firing for Google. She won’t be missed.

Uh what? https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Timnit+gebru The first paper listed there has over 1000 citations in 2 years. That’s influence and impact. Just because you don’t know of her work doesn’t mean that her work has not had an impact and that she’s not well known in her research community. She definitely is.

I’ve read the papers. The ones where she is a (1,2,3)ary author are all glorified rants - well worded, but offering no actionable feedback or new methods.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#590

Post by rbanffy »

Andraia wrote: post #448
mkolodny wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback. Timnit wrote that if we didn’t meet these demands, she would leave Google and work on an end date." We don't know the full list of demands, b…

> We don't know the full list of demands Timnit is far from silent. She could share them if she wanted to. She appears to think that that would hurt rather than help her.

Considering she says she made a list of issues she'd like fixed and that she'd discuss it when she came back from PTO without ever mentioning resignation and that was answered with a "we accept your resignation" passed on to her reports, I believe she has legal representation.

The financial implications of her resigning vs her being fired are probably significant.

In Google's place I'd probably negotiate an agreement with a non-disparagement clause. She'd be compensated and everyone would save face.

And we'd never be discussing this. She could take other research roles and advance the state of AI in peace.

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