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AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

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Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#571

Post by madrox »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #555
stevecalifornia wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You are probably going to be a very successful computer person. But you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. And I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won't be true. It'll be because you're an asshole." ~ The Social Network A good number of social activists are rude and abrasive and then blame how people react as racism/sexism. No one wants to be…

That's a little ungenerous. Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist. Activism fundamentally requires telling people that their actions should be modified, that their beliefs may be flawed, that their systems have problems. It's really hard to do that and be a likeable person. Of course social activists may at times cross the line…

Ilhan Omar said something similar on Twitter in response to Obama's criticisms of the "defund the police" slogan. I think you're being overly generous to social activists. Their fundamental job is to bring social change. You can't change anything by simply alienating those who disagree with you. That creates political entrenchment.

The fact is that Obama has got way more done for America than Omar, so I'm inclined to think he's right.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#572

Post by screye »

jeffbee wrote: post #388
contemporary343 wrote: post #292

It looks like the paper was critical of large language models: https://www.fastcompany.com/90582375/timnit-gebru-google-fir... The original article has been updated with Jeff Dean's response, while a member of Gebru's team (who still works at Google Brain) states that Dean's email is misleading and inaccurate: https://twitter.com/alexhanna/status/1334579764573691904 As I understand it: The paper had already been subm…

Quite a contrast between Dean's message and Gebru's. I know which one I'd want leading my team.

Jeff Dean is treated like God in these circles alongside the likes of Carmack. Despite that, I'd say he is appropriately rated.

There is not a single software team on planet earth that would not want Jeff as their technical leader.

It is like comparing a high school athlete to Usain Bolt.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#573

Post by kmonsen »

1024core wrote: post #449

This person forced Yann LeCun (one of the top 3 AI/ML researchers today, head of Facebook AI, and an ML researcher since the 80s) to give up on Twitter after she took exception to this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1274782757907030016 She lives her life attacking people who she disagrees with, and brings in race/gender into any conflict where she's involved. I am surprised Google had hired her, beca…

Not disputing what you are saying, but there seems to be more to the story. If this is all that happened why not let her resign on her own (perhaps take action if this did not happen after n months). Surely that would create less publicity.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#574

Post by chrissnell »

basicneo wrote: post #545
stevecalifornia wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You are probably going to be a very successful computer person. But you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. And I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won't be true. It'll be because you're an asshole." ~ The Social Network A good number of social activists are rude and abrasive and then blame how people react as racism/sexism. No one wants to be…

Experiencing marginalisation is frustrating, and frustrated people sometimes have outbursts. I don't think we can infer much from a few highly publicised events.

Was she marginalized? She ran a team at Google. How many of us can claim that?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#575

Post by [deleted] »

parliament32 wrote: post #26

I don't think "fired" is the right choice of words -- she gave an ultimatum offering to resign, and they accepted her resignation. Is accepting a resignation the same as firing someone? > Thanks for making your conditions clear. We cannot agree to #1 and #2 as you are requesting. We respect your decision to leave Google as a result, and we are accepting your resignation. https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334364…

[deleted]

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#576

Post by mstg »

stevecalifornia wrote: post #519
1024core wrote: post #449

This person forced Yann LeCun (one of the top 3 AI/ML researchers today, head of Facebook AI, and an ML researcher since the 80s) to give up on Twitter after she took exception to this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1274782757907030016 She lives her life attacking people who she disagrees with, and brings in race/gender into any conflict where she's involved. I am surprised Google had hired her, beca…

"You are probably going to be a very successful computer person. But you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. And I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won't be true. It'll be because you're an asshole." ~ The Social Network A good number of social activists are rude and abrasive and then blame how people react as racism/sexism. No one wants to be…

I totally agree with you. Screaming racism/sexism/marginalisation every time someone disagrees with you is annoying and tiring. I am a second degree immigrant in Norway and I always see this behaviour in people who blame society when they don't get their way when in reality people rarely get their way all the time. I hope the level of stupid activism does not reach Norway although we do copy many stupidities of the US :)

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#577

Post by hpoe »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #555
stevecalifornia wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You are probably going to be a very successful computer person. But you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. And I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won't be true. It'll be because you're an asshole." ~ The Social Network A good number of social activists are rude and abrasive and then blame how people react as racism/sexism. No one wants to be…

That's a little ungenerous. Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist. Activism fundamentally requires telling people that their actions should be modified, that their beliefs may be flawed, that their systems have problems. It's really hard to do that and be a likeable person. Of course social activists may at times cross the line…

May I direct you to watch Daryl Davis's ted talk or really anything he speaks about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw

For context he is a black man that has gotten over a hundred leaders of the KKK, including former convicts to leave the Klan. Not by arguing with them, not be reasoning, not by showing them the effects of their behaviour, but instead by sitting down, talking with them and becoming their friend.

In a nutshell this one man has probably done more to combat racism, than all the angry tweets on twitter combined.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#578

Post by PeterisP »

je42 wrote: post #383
rubatuga wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Yann said about data bias is a fact. He wasn’t dismissing your concerns nor distracting from it. A lot of people tried to extrapolate what Yann meant, but from the way I see it, if more people learn about the cause of this racial bias, the more people will be inclined to use fairer and diverse datasets in their future ML research.

The point is that she has an expectation of Yann to go further than just stating a fact. I assume she thinks that Yann has enough intellectual capacity to improve situation of biased ML but doesnt execute. Further, my guess is that the reason why he doesnt execute is not transparent to her, hence frustrating.

This is probably the core of the conflict there - there are researchers that aim to remove technical bias from technical systems and expect to stop there, not going into social issues of how the systems will be applied, as they consider that (e.g. solving the biases in the society) as a separate issue.

Dr. Gebru, among others, expects and insists that they do go beyond that and try to get involved in the social consequences of tech. They refuse, ergo conflict.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#579

Post by tanilama »

anonvenger wrote: post #411
contemporary343 wrote: post #292

It looks like the paper was critical of large language models: https://www.fastcompany.com/90582375/timnit-gebru-google-fir... The original article has been updated with Jeff Dean's response, while a member of Gebru's team (who still works at Google Brain) states that Dean's email is misleading and inaccurate: https://twitter.com/alexhanna/status/1334579764573691904 As I understand it: The paper had already been subm…

From Jeff Dean's email: > Timnit co-authored a paper with four fellow Googlers as well as some external collaborators that needed to go through our review process (as is the case with all externally submitted papers). We’ve approved dozens of papers that Timnit and/or the other Googlers have authored and then published, but as you know, papers often require changes during the internal review process (or are even deem…

> revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to

Big red flag. Why are the identities of reviewers important here? Did she plan to take those reviewers to the court of public opinions for a trial/exposure?

A lesson is delivered in time IMO. Those entitled people need to be called out.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#580

Post by jelliclesfarm »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #555
stevecalifornia wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You are probably going to be a very successful computer person. But you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. And I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won't be true. It'll be because you're an asshole." ~ The Social Network A good number of social activists are rude and abrasive and then blame how people react as racism/sexism. No one wants to be…

That's a little ungenerous. Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist. Activism fundamentally requires telling people that their actions should be modified, that their beliefs may be flawed, that their systems have problems. It's really hard to do that and be a likeable person. Of course social activists may at times cross the line…

>Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist.

Exhibit A: Gandhi

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