AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google • Hacker News Board

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#531

Post by chrononaut » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

(IANAL) One small point to add is that since Timnit was a manager at Google, she also acts as an agent of her employer.[0] With this, there is going to be a higher expectation of conforming with company policies and processes, particularly how she interacts with other individuals inside and outside the company due to her actions having a larger impact on Google's general liability.

I am not sure how this may have influenced Google's decision in this particular case, but I imagine it was part of the evaluation. Other comments here delve further into her current and previous actions.

[0] https://www.lynchlf.com/blog/personal-liability-for-managers...

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#532

Post by jdashg » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

IvyMike wrote: post #205

davorak wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having conditions is often part of a negotiation. Maybe they offered to resign in that email, but Timnit Gebru does not say she did in the linked twitter as far as I can tell. Unless she formally offer to resign it seems like her management jumped the gun.

From this tweet: https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334343577044979712 > I said here are the conditions. If you can meet them great I’ll take my name off this paper, if not then I can work on a last date. To employers, that qualifies as a conditional resignation.

The employer can't modify the specifics of the resignation by "moving it up", since that's not what the conditional resignation offered. They can fire her, sure, but they can't call it "resignation". You can't "resign" someone, but you can ask for their immediate resignation. If it's not voluntary, it's firing.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#533

Post by davorak » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

pb7 wrote: post #508

davorak wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is missing and would make it clearer where things fall is the email from Timnit to Jeff. Then the language used by Timnit could analyzed and reasoned through to determine if it counts as a formal offer to resign or not. I not jumping on any bandwagons without at least that or equivalent.

>I not jumping on any bandwagons without at least that or equivalent. Which is exactly why she has refrained from releasing it throughout this whole drama: plausible deniability.

> Which is exactly why she has refrained from releasing it throughout this whole drama: plausible deniability.

I do not think there is evidence for that. It is normal to remove employee access to email if they are leaving so it is unlikely Timnit would have access to the email to share.

Timnit says says she has been cut off from her corp account as well: https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334364734418726912

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#534

Post by unknownkadath » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 11:33 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #480

unknownkadath wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, so were pretty much all of the best people in history. That's not a great filter for finding the next hitler, is it?

But I would guess that if you added up all the contributions of the people most passionate for making the world a better place, the bad far outweighs the good.

That would be a bold supposition, I think.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#535

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 11:33 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #449

This person forced Yann LeCun (one of the top 3 AI/ML researchers today, head of Facebook AI, and an ML researcher since the 80s) to give up on Twitter after she took exception to this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1274782757907030016 She lives her life attacking people who she disagrees with, and brings in race/gender into any conflict where she's involved. I am surprised Google had hired her, beca…

[deleted]

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#536

Post by refulgentis » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 11:34 PM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #527

refulgentis wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, dumb question, which part are you disputing? I must be being too literal. What you called out as "doesn't at all sound like the case": [1: they continued employing her for months and months] [2: while her lawyer was threatening to sue the company] First paragraph of the email OP posted, which I am defending as worth sharing: "This happened to me last year. [[1]: there has been 11+ months, or months and months,…

"while her lawyer was threatening to sue the company" My reading is that the situation you're describing is resolved, and has been for quite a while. Thus no lawyer is currently threatening to sue, nor have they for quite a while. Thus: an employee asserted her rights under the law in the past, and the situation was, apparently, resolved to everyone's pleasure. "recently conspiring a legal battle against Google" is a…

Gotcha, my post didn't mean to imply that the lawsuit _wasn't_ resolved, just that there was a period in which there was a lawsuit threatened and she was employed. Thank you for the feedback! I've had more negative interactions on here than positive recently, and this was heartening.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#537

Post by stanfordalum » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 11:35 PM UTC

sorenjan wrote: post #510

Upvoter33 wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but it still bothers me that people like this get highly paid positions to point out problems seemingly without any technical knowledge" You are making a lot of (wrong) assumptions here. Not too many Stanford PhDs are graduating without technical knowledge

Ok, I read her Wikipedia entry and apparently she has Bachelor's and Master's degrees in electrical engineering from Stanford. Those are probably fairly standardized, so I'll concede that she does have some technical knowledge. I have however seen way to many doctorates that seem technical while they're not. There's a common theme in her career, and it's not necessarily technical knowledge. She worked at Microsoft re…

When I was a grad student at Stanford she was one of the TAs for the main ML class (CS229). I can personally attest that she has solid technical skills and is quite sharp. (I got my PhD in EE at Stanford around the same time)

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#538

Post by choppaface » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 11:38 PM UTC

Mods: the official title on this news article is "The withering email that got an ethical AI researcher fired at Google"

The current HN story is titled "AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google". That current title is either inaccurate or is pure editorial from the submitter.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#539

Post by madrox » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 11:39 PM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #76

parliament32 wrote: post #26

I don't think "fired" is the right choice of words -- she gave an ultimatum offering to resign, and they accepted her resignation. Is accepting a resignation the same as firing someone? > Thanks for making your conditions clear. We cannot agree to #1 and #2 as you are requesting. We respect your decision to leave Google as a result, and we are accepting your resignation. https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334364…

I recently re-read Noah Smith's essay "Leaders Who Act Like Outsiders Invite Trouble" https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-03/leader... . It's not directly on point, but one concept is: "This extraordinary trend of rank-and-file members challenging the leaders of their organizations goes beyond simple populism. There may be no word for this trend in the English language. But there is one in Japanese: ge…

I've seen gekokujo in many places as a manager. There's often a desire among employees to require the world to adjust to how they think it should work instead of following process. This isn't always bad, of course, because process isn't always perfect. However, their success or failure tend to correlate to their perceived value. Simply put, you have to be a diva in order to act like a diva. I think the last puppeteer for Kermit is a great example[1].

No idea if that's happened here, but as a manager I know what I'd do if an employee -- any employee -- told me to to meet their demands or they would quit.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/tv/muppets-studio-says-k...

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#540

Post by titanomachy » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 11:41 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #513

titanomachy wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not very familiar with the norms of corporate research. Is it normal for corporations to give their researchers tenure-like freedom to publish anything they want? I assume that top researchers (who have their pick of institutions) will choose organizations where they can be relatively free. But what do you mean by "fair academic criticism"? If a company publishes only papers that clearly advance its interests, bu…

At least in theory, something like: Fair academic criticism: We shouldn't publish this paper because it has flaws X,Y,Z. (usually followed by an opportunity for the researchers to address X,Y,Z). Unfair and/or non-academic criticisms: We shouldn't publish this paper because: I don't like the author/authors institution. I don't like this approach, approach X is better. I don't like the conclusions. The last is potenti…

That makes sense, but I don't think of corporate approval committees as being designed to render "fair academic criticism". For example, they might say "the core thesis of this paper reveals our valuable trade secrets and therefore you are forbidden from publishing it externally." That's not fair academic criticism, but it could be a reasonable decision for the committee to make.