AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google • Hacker News Board

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#431

Post by jpdus » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

@dang/mods: Apart from what you think about the story, the new title "AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google" is even more biased and incorrect than the old one or the headline from the linked article.

Timnit definitely did not intend to resign "immediately" and from everything what is known was fired on the spot (that she mentioned a possible resignation in an Email is not important for that distinction). A correct headline would be "AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired by Google after threatening to resign".

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#432

Post by kaymanb » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

ipnon wrote: post #217

I found this particularly telling: >But now there’s an additional layer saying any privileged person can decide that they don’t want your paper out with zero conversation. Decisions in megacorporations are made in one direction, from the top on down. If this is her main point of contention, I sympathize but that's what you get for joining one of the largest corporations in the world. It seems both parties will be bet…

If her goal was to perform research that would positively impact AI that runs in production, then taking a position at Google doesn't seem like the worst idea. Especially with since their stated principles [1] seem to fit that agenda.

Unfortunately enacting change "from within" isn't always easy. It's easy to forget that Google AI still sits underneath the megacorp.

[1] https://ai.google/principles/

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#433

Post by antiquark » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

adamsea wrote: post #396

antiquark wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gebru would disagree: > “I think that now a lot of people have understood that we need to have more diverse datasets, but unfortunately I felt like that’s kind of where the understanding has stopped. It’s like ‘let’s diversify our datasets. And that’s kind of ethics and fairness, right?’ But you can’t ignore social and structural problems.“ This seems to be saying that Yann LeCun should actually be addressing social…

IMHO she is saying it’s reasonable to believe that social and systemic issues have an impact on creating ML models (as the teams designing, building, and deploying said models are members of society) in ways in addition to the data sets. I don’t know what the right answer is but plenty of institutions come up with ways they attempt to deal with systemic biases. For example, blind auditions for positions in orchestras…

Sure, but Yann LeCun is a neural network expert. Should it be his job to tackle social/systemic/institutional problems? What if he doesn't want to?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#434

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

tkfu wrote: post #149

greatjack613 wrote: post #48

Unrelated, but hiring by race or gender is inherently racist. We should hire by skill alone whether the person is a Lesbian Black Female, or a White Male

Ok, but how do you do that? It was easy in classical music; they just started doing auditions behind a curtain, without any verbal Q&A, and suddenly a field that used to be dominated by men became pretty much 50/50, and all the people who said that men were better at the highest echelons of musical achievement had to shut up. But tech companies want to talk to the humans they're hiring, so race and gender are (almost…

[deleted]

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#435

Post by davorak » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

pb7 wrote: post #403

davorak wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that, not clear without reading the email whether it was a formal offer to resign. If an employee tells their boss they have a plan to offer a resignation on x day or do not get y or are considering it they can fire the employee before then, but I assume they can not push around the day they offer a resignation. An employer not wanting to keep an employee who might soon resign is understandable of course. I am…

This isn’t having a beer with your buddies and spitballing plans. If you email your employer saying give me this or I resign, the employer can accept your resignation simply by saying no to your conditions. It’s grade school logic. They called her bluff and that’s why she’s salty about it. She signaled her intention to resign and due to her behavior with her reports, Google doesn’t want more of that on her way out so…

> If you email your employer saying give me this or I resign

If it's that clear cut it's that clear cut. Without the email I can not tell.

Timnit Gebru said she "hadn't resigned" and "had asked for simple conditions". So according to her the intent to resign was not in her email.

https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334341991795142667

It's possible to not have the intent and still word something as a clear cut formal offer to resign however. With out the email it is not possible to tell where this falls.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#436

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

jerome-jh wrote: post #379

black_puppydog wrote: post #2

I think this is actually the better link to be discussing, rather than the twitter threads shared before. The most relevant parts (in terms of back story) should be this: > A week before you go out on vacation, you see a meeting pop up at 4:30pm PST on your calendar (this popped up at around 2pm). No one would tell you what the meeting was about in advance. Then in that meeting your manager’s manager tells you “it ha…

> behavior that is inconsistent with the expectations of a Google manager. Maybe my remark is down to earth but, she literally told her group to stop working. I do not know of any company where this is an acceptable behavior for a manager. Besides the disagreements, it sounds to me that was the action that caused Google to pull the trigger. Also from Dean's email it is pretty clear there are a number of new products…

[deleted]

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#437

Post by lambda_obrien » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

unknownkadath wrote: post #278

lambda_obrien wrote: post #178

One thing I learn each day on HN is that software practitioners need more ethics lessons, it's sad that it's so hard for some folks to open their mind enough to understand why this isn't just some "rabble rouser" causing drama. Ethics in software, especially AI, are severely lacking in the present day.

Recognizing that all people are, well, people would be a good first step on the road to ensuring that we dont all not become paperclips, right?

for sure yes; treating people like people not robots or cattle or employees, just other humans who have needs, wants, and emotions.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#438

Post by thebladerunner » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

defertoreptar wrote: post #305

> This happened to me last year. I was in the middle of a potential lawsuit for which Kat Herller and I hired feminist lawyers who threatened to sue Google (which is when they backed off--before that Google lawyers were prepared to throw us under the bus and our leaders were following as instructed) and the next day I get some random “impact award.” Pure gaslighting. And she was under the impression that her company…

To clarify, the first paragraph of defertoreotar@'s comment is a quote from Timnit Gebru's tweet where she admits to recently conspiring a legal battle against Google, while on Google's payroll. A wolf in sheep's clothing...

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#439

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #332

tkfu wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but how do you do that? It was easy in classical music; they just started doing auditions behind a curtain, without any verbal Q&A, and suddenly a field that used to be dominated by men became pretty much 50/50, and all the people who said that men were better at the highest echelons of musical achievement had to shut up. But tech companies want to talk to the humans they're hiring, so race and gender are (almost…

"It was easy in classical music; they just started doing auditions behind a curtain, without any verbal Q&A, and suddenly a field that used to be dominated by men became pretty much 50/50" Be careful here, the wind has changed and blind auditions are now problematic. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition...

> Be careful here, the wind has changed and blind auditions are now problematic.

The argument made in the article you cite is ludicrous, blind auditions cannot possibly hurt diversity. If there is a problem when blind auditions are used in hiring for professional orchestras, the problem is elsewhere in the pipeline, and the way to fix it isn't replacing blind auditions, its fixing issue further up the pipeline.

There may be a pro-diversity case for using something other than current skill as a factor at other stages of the pipeline which are intended as, in whole or in part, educational and where current skill is being used not as a measure of current professional competence, but as a proxy for potential. But even there that's largely a poor substitute for identifying and addressing the factors producing a skewed pool.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#440

Post by prionassembly » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #198

antiquark wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I'm so tired" bit Yeah, it sort of implies that, yes, you're angry about something, but actually have no constructive advice or solutions, other than to accuse someone of being a bad person or even a racist. The "I'm so tired" bit is similar to the "I'm not here to teach you" bit. Maybe someone can't teach you because they actually have nothing to teach.

No, "I'm so tired" means that it's an argument they have replied to before. She has written dozens of research papers, some of which probably contained arguments other than repetition of "you're a racist and a bad person". You of course know about this, or would now about this considering she is called an "AI researcher at Google" in the title of this tread. So the only lazy and un-constructive criticism is to assume…

Google “Gebru arxiv”.

If you’re confused as to whom Lecun is, google also “lecun arxiv”.