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AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

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Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#281

Post by VHRanger »

curiousllama wrote: post #60
Tycho wrote: post #27

Title here is misleading (probably deliberate). The email that got this person “fired” was one that allegedly contained an ultimatum and a threat to resign. The employer then called her bluff and accepted her resignation with immediate effect.

Even if it were the case, responding to "retract this paper" with "No; I prefer to resign" is/should be par for the course for a researcher.

They submitted thee paper for internal review one day before their external deadline.

They set themselves up for failure regardless of the paper's content.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#282

Post by mola »

curiousllama wrote: post #32
jeffbee wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how it is supposed to work. If you complain to HR about your manager how can they reveal your identity when your manager controls your performance review and compensation?

If the complaint is about academic research in a research institute, then there needs to be a different process. It's typically a fairly conservative idea, in fact (see: Chicago Principles [1]). [1] https://provost.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/documents/r...

This is not a research institute, it's a division in a for profit global corporation. I'm frankly disgusted that people who call themselves researchers of the humanities go work in this sort of obvious PR stunt of an "institute".

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#283

Post by unknownkadath »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #232
xupybd wrote: post #65

She seems very passionate about makeing the world a better place. The only downside to this sort of drive is that it doesn't always align with everyone else's vision of a better world. I don't think she and Google were on the same page and perhaps both parties will be much happier going their separate ways.

> She seems very passionate about makeing the world a better place. Some of the worst people in history who committed the worst atrocities were very passionate about making the world a better place, at least as they defined “better”.

I mean, so were pretty much all of the best people in history. That's not a great filter for finding the next hitler, is it?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#284

Post by PeterisP »

mhkool wrote: post #279
PeterisP wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems plausible that a key result of her research (likely including the unnamed paper which she was asked to retract) is driving change in policy and social opinion that is apparently considered harmful to Google, so the research does not add value to Google , it benefits others (e.g. particular underprivileged groups) but just imposes extra restrictions and costs to her employer. Industry research is not academia…

Sure, companies may have interests in some areas and not others, but it is counterproductive and even irritating if the company does not clearly communicate what the areas of interest are and which are not. An order to retract without explanation is rude and counterproductive.

Yes, sure, the current situation a sign of a misalignment in goals (and likely values) that has gone unaddressed far too long; and that's the responsibility of managers to ensure that this communication happens early. However, it somehow seems that if this situation was managed properly, the result would simply be that she would quit or get fired some time earlier.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#285

Post by korse »

This article actually brings to mind an old question of mine regarding short range infra-red rangefinders. Are these devices discriminatory because they respond poorly to less reflective objects? If white men were not so prevalent in the development of these devices, would we see a greater emphasis on inexpensive sensing solutions that measure return from objects based on a human common denominator like density rather than the reflection of nearly-visible light?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#286

Post by parliament32 »

tkfu wrote: post #149
greatjack613 wrote: post #48

Unrelated, but hiring by race or gender is inherently racist. We should hire by skill alone whether the person is a Lesbian Black Female, or a White Male

Ok, but how do you do that? It was easy in classical music; they just started doing auditions behind a curtain, without any verbal Q&A, and suddenly a field that used to be dominated by men became pretty much 50/50, and all the people who said that men were better at the highest echelons of musical achievement had to shut up. But tech companies want to talk to the humans they're hiring, so race and gender are (almost…

>There's no equivalent to the curtain

There's no reason you can't do an interview over text-chat instead of in person -- hell, with most of us working remote for the foreseeable future, that's how the majority of on-the-job communication will happen anyway.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#288

Post by blueblisters »

PeterisP wrote: post #243
webkike wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that one of the reasons they have not produced anything of value is because, at least in this case, the work is actively suppressed. The heart of the issue here is that Timnit tried to publish a paper and was told by upper management to retract it with no further feedback. Maybe if you’re going to hire ethics researchers, you should listen to them?

If the upper management wanted to retract that paper then it seems reasonable to assume that preparing this paper did not produce any value to the company. Doing work that needs to be actively suppressed is not producing value - at least not to the company. So apparently there's a fundamental misalignment between the work Dr. Gebru wants to do and the work that Google wants her to do; this was made clear with the sup…

> If the upper management wanted to retract that paper then it seems reasonable to assume that preparing this paper did not produce any value to the company.

I don't know about publishing standards at Google but, assuming they are uniform for all researchers, I am pretty sure Google would be unable to retain talent if researchers were asked to prove value to Google for every paper they publish. I think for researchers, this reinforces the oft-dismissed notion that you give up significant academic freedom in exchange for a fat paycheck when you join an industrial research lab.

This can be particularly damaging for Google because many of its research projects don't have an immediate business impact, and it hires top researchers by offering an alternative to the slog of academia.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#289

Post by tehjoker »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #251
tehjoker wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a point, but the key difference is the US is able to export its product worldwide using the military and corporations. I don't think Mexico has the same level of power.

That’s circumstantial though. My point is that these countries aren’t cosmic forces. We’re all humans that instantiate the same fundamental prejudices, instincts, biases, etc. wherever you find us.

I would partly agree. We're all in a single global system of social organization and it's hard to see outside that (capitalist realism). Often these divisions are sown intentionally by the upper classes. I don't want to say humans aren't shitty, but I don't think they fundamentally have to be. I think they respond to their material conditions and an appropriate kind of social organization and material support can reduce the bad stuff a lot.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#290

Post by joshuamorton »

oh_sigh wrote: post #263
joshuamorton wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without the specific wording of the original email, I don't think that you can draw this conclusion. I'll note also that this is rather unusual practice for Google. There are a number of people, far more critical of Google, who have resigned, and who have been able to rampdown for 2+ weeks.

The posted email specifically says something about behavior not expected of her position. So it seems possible if you are critical, but fulfill your obligations, they would accept your 2 weeks resignation. Is there an example you have, even self-reported, of a person who was merely critical of Google and was not given a rampdown? Or someone who was critical and did not fulfill their job obligations, and was given a r…

> The posted email specifically says something about behavior not expected of her position.

Yes, and its unclear what this behavior was.

> Is there an example you have, even self-reported, of a person who was merely critical of Google and was not given a rampdown?

No, which is my point. This is unusual behavior on the part of Google, because it's not explained (and certainly not obvious) what the failure was.

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