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AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

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Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#171

Post by uoaei »

idlewords wrote: post #101
jononor wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next two tweets contain more: > However, we believe the end of your employment should happen faster than your email reflects because certain aspects of the email you sent last night to non-management employees in the brain group reflect behavior that is inconsistent with the expectations of a Google manager. > As a result, we are accepting your resignation immediately, effective today. We will send your final pay…

No, this is more like giving two weeks' notice and then being asked to leave the building immediately. It's not pleasant but it also isn't the same as being fired. Google called her bluff here.

But she didn't ask for two weeks' notice. She signaled she was considering giving notice but had not done so yet.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#172

Post by davorak »

parliament32 wrote: post #26

I don't think "fired" is the right choice of words -- she gave an ultimatum offering to resign, and they accepted her resignation. Is accepting a resignation the same as firing someone? > Thanks for making your conditions clear. We cannot agree to #1 and #2 as you are requesting. We respect your decision to leave Google as a result, and we are accepting your resignation. https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334364…

Having conditions is often part of a negotiation. Maybe they offered to resign in that email, but Timnit Gebru does not say she did in the linked twitter as far as I can tell.

Unless she formally offer to resign it seems like her management jumped the gun.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#173

Post by mcguire »

lowercase1 wrote: post #144

Too many comments focused on whether Google was justified in firing her/the appropriateness of the email and not enough on the impact/veracity allegations. Much more interesting questions that might get revealed a bit: Does Google treat minorities appropriately? Is Google covering up ai ethics research? Does Google care about AI ethics/bias?

It's difficult to tell, since no one is presenting any kind of unbiased evidence.

From what I've seen, I agree with Gebru about AI research, but this letter has too many problems itself.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#174

Post by spa3thyb »

twic wrote: post #150
jseliger wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently re-read Noah Smith's essay "Leaders Who Act Like Outsiders Invite Trouble" https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-03/leader... . It's not directly on point, but one concept is: "This extraordinary trend of rank-and-file members challenging the leaders of their organizations goes beyond simple populism. There may be no word for this trend in the English language. But there is one in Japanese: ge…

> There may be no word for this trend in the English language. But there is one in Japanese: gekokujo. Isn't the word "mutiny"?

More like coup d'état, or an underdog victory. Author doesn't seem to be using it right, since this would be an actual shift in power, rather than a failed insurgency (as in OP).

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#175

Post by uoaei »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #81
prionassembly wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tone of her replies is regrettable: Yann: “ML systems are biased when data is biased" Timnit: “I’m sick of this framing. Tired of it. Many people have tried to explain, many scholars. Listen to us. You can’t just reduce harms caused by ML to dataset bias. Even amidst of world wide protests people don’t hear our voices and try to learn from us, they assume they’re experts in everything. Let us lead her and you fol…

I find it strange to take issue with the "I'm so tired" line. It would seem to be entirely appropriate for circumstances where you see an argument that you have replied to many times but that completely ignores your reply. It also just doesn't strike me as particularly hostile or profane. Quitting twitter and making a show of it strikes me as a far more emotional reaction, but nobody here seems to take any issue with…

> so... I guess you're tired of it?

Yeah GP is modeling exactly the behavior they're railing against. Claiming that something is wrong without any practical insights for how that thing might be better.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#177

Post by ardy42 »

nickff wrote: post #52
ardy42 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions have historically been some of the most racist and discriminatory organizations in the USA. The USA has been pretty racist in discriminatory, and I think it's disingenuous to single out unions for that history. I mean, who instituted Jim Crow and profited from slavery? White voters, government officials, and private enterprise. Unions were definitely not leading that.

Private enterprise was usually castigated for not being racist enough. Economics was the 'dismal science' because it didn't support racism, segregation, and slavery.

> Private enterprise was usually castigated for not being racist enough. Economics was the 'dismal science' because it didn't support racism, segregation, and slavery.

I had slavery in mind with the private enterprise comment.

But it's not like businesses are actually run by perfectly rational automatons according to textbook economics. They're run by owners and managers who can be just as racist as the surrounding community, and who can very well prioritize prejudice over a little more profit.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#178

Post by lambda_obrien »

One thing I learn each day on HN is that software practitioners need more ethics lessons, it's sad that it's so hard for some folks to open their mind enough to understand why this isn't just some "rabble rouser" causing drama. Ethics in software, especially AI, are severely lacking in the present day.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#179

Post by sandworm101 »

gcblkjaidfj wrote: post #47
sandworm101 wrote: post #40

Wow. Outside of the issues discussed, this email was not what I would expect from senior manager. The language is all over the place. It is rambling. It is not unintelligible, but is far from an easy read. It seems like something dictated into a machine rather than something composed on a keyboard. If you are not confident in your use of language but still want to go out in a blaze of glory, make sure someone QCs you…

I did not get that impression. But I do recognize the dense style common on the humanities academic field. It can throw some people off at first.

One paragraph has four parentheticals. I wonder which humanities background, other than Law, finds that acceptable.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#180

Post by contemporary343 »

curiousllama wrote: post #127
high_derivative wrote: post #90

These things seem to play out like clockwork. Progressive companies hire social justice warriors into vague ethics or policy roles, let them hire their activist friends, shower them with fast track careers and promotions. It's good optics, the progressives like it because it makes them feel better about working at big techs. Said hires have thus far, as far as I can tell, not produced anything of substantial value to…

> Said hires have thus far, as far as I can tell, not produced anything of substantial value "As far as I can tell" is doing a lot of work here. I can confirm this is untrue. I worked with someone like Gebru (definitely an activist researcher) at a non-FAANG and AI ethics drove 3 multimillion dollar deals. Was a better business case than most I built over that time. Besides, saying they don't drive revenue is a criti…

Agreed: Even if one is cynical (as I am) about the reason these companies hire AI policy and ethics researchers (for PR and to deflect criticisms on how their products operate, far too often) - it is clear that many potential consumers and regulators (!) that are inclined to be skeptical or critical will think more positively of the company.

Also, let's be real. How much revenue are the vast majority of AI/ML researchers actually driving in these companies? Sure, someone gets promoted for multiple NeurIPS papers, and it looks great for the company. But most of the time, it doesn't directly impact products and revenue -- in the short-term -- and that's ok. Same deal for AI ethics and policy researchers.

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