AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google • Hacker News Board

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#51

Post by jeffbee » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

black_puppydog wrote: post #44

jeffbee wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really hard to tell from this message what really happened. Why isn't it plausible that the paper in question was somehow upsetting to one of the dozens of people to whom the author circulated it? It reads to me like this person rejects the very idea that any criticism of their paper could possibly be legitimate.

That's not the impression I get. First, for this to be a valid case of HR protecting someone who needs protecting, these complaints would have to come from someone who Gebru was managing and therefore have leverage on. I don't know the specifics, but it would stand to reason that she did manage some people, so that possibility can't be excluded for sure. But from the last paragraph it seems that she did actually try…

I don't think modern HR policy really works like that. If one person complains to their HRBP that the speech or actions of another person at the company makes them feel personally attacked, derogated, or establishes a hostile work environment then the company will be forced to take that matter to the second person. HR isn't looking to setup an Oxford debate between persons A and B. They are required to resolve the hostile work environment allegation, else person A has an actionable complaint against the company.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#52

Post by nickff » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #15

nickff wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions have historically been some of the most racist and discriminatory organizations in the USA.

> Unions have historically been some of the most racist and discriminatory organizations in the USA. The USA has been pretty racist in discriminatory, and I think it's disingenuous to single out unions for that history. I mean, who instituted Jim Crow and profited from slavery? White voters, government officials, and private enterprise. Unions were definitely not leading that.

Private enterprise was usually castigated for not being racist enough. Economics was the 'dismal science' because it didn't support racism, segregation, and slavery.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#53

Post by tehjoker » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:58 PM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #50

tehjoker wrote: post #5

Corporations and their managers care only about making money and maintaining good vibes to produce a positive business environment. Only unions engaging in strikes and outside pressure can force them to change materially. All these internal committees and such are just PR. By the way, that part about unions and strikes also applies to the joined at the hip government as well.

I think worker cooperatives could also be a pressure for material change industry wide, and specifically in the tech industry I suspect that's more attainable than for workers of many other industries.

I agree. I think one day I will be interested in organizing a tech cooperative. I'm not quite ready to make the jump though.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#54

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

f154hfds wrote: post #38

roflc0ptic wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so unhelpful and dumb. The US has historically been one of the most racist and discriminatory organizations in North America. Does that mean we shouldn’t engage the US? Does that mean the US can’t be less racist? Does that mean the US isn’t a tool we can try to use to make the world a better place? Unions provide countervailing power to corporate power. Racist people are racist. Sometimes these can overlap.

Unions historically in America have been massive front organizations for mobsters and mafia. Check out the Teamsters - there are many many other examples. Does that make them racist? Of course not. But they have absolutely been discriminatory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Brotherhood_of_T...

[deleted]

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#55

Post by mcphage » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #8

fatnoah wrote: post #6

> And you are told after a while, that your manager can read you a privileged and confidential document and you’re not supposed to even know who contributed to this document, who wrote this feedback, what process was followed or anything Interesting. Having been on the receiving end of a (later proven to be bogus) HR complaint, this is exactly how it was handled. I was forced to respond to allegations where neither t…

That's how it is supposed to work. If you complain to HR about your manager how can they reveal your identity when your manager controls your performance review and compensation?

> That's how it is supposed to work.

How, exactly, is it supposed to work? If you are asked to respond to allegations, yet those allegations are not shared with you, what are they actually asking you to do?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#56

Post by raldi » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

parliament32 wrote: post #26

I don't think "fired" is the right choice of words -- she gave an ultimatum offering to resign, and they accepted her resignation. Is accepting a resignation the same as firing someone? > Thanks for making your conditions clear. We cannot agree to #1 and #2 as you are requesting. We respect your decision to leave Google as a result, and we are accepting your resignation. https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334364…

Have “#1 and #2” been published? I don’t see them at the link above or anywhere else.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#57

Post by KentLane » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

silisili wrote: post #24

bitshift010 wrote: post #13

Chief AI Scientist at Facebook, Yann Lecun, quit Twitter after a back and forth with this particular AI researcher - https://syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter... >I’m always amazed at how people can continue to do thing after thing like this and then turn around and ask me for some sort of extra DEI work or input. This happened to me last year. I was in the middle of a potential lawsuit for which K…

Yeah, that Lecun argument was a really bad first impression of her from me. I guess she found out life isn't Twitter and you can't just go around telling everyone they are bad and wrong without consequences.

She will land on her feet. There is a huge demand for ideologues willing to lobotomize ML.

“Let’s generate fake data with GANs to prevent our AI from discovering politically uncomfortable regularities!”

It’s ugly work but someone has to do it, right?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#58

Post by tgv » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

prionassembly wrote: post #43

bitshift010 wrote: post #13

Chief AI Scientist at Facebook, Yann Lecun, quit Twitter after a back and forth with this particular AI researcher - https://syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yann-lecun-quits-twitter... >I’m always amazed at how people can continue to do thing after thing like this and then turn around and ask me for some sort of extra DEI work or input. This happened to me last year. I was in the middle of a potential lawsuit for which K…

The tone of her replies is regrettable: Yann: “ML systems are biased when data is biased" Timnit: “I’m sick of this framing. Tired of it. Many people have tried to explain, many scholars. Listen to us. You can’t just reduce harms caused by ML to dataset bias. Even amidst of world wide protests people don’t hear our voices and try to learn from us, they assume they’re experts in everything. Let us lead her and you fol…

But isn't it commonly accepted that ML systems reflect the bias in the data, and that it's hard to predict and control the bias in advance?

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#59

Post by chungus_khan » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

f154hfds wrote: post #38

roflc0ptic wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so unhelpful and dumb. The US has historically been one of the most racist and discriminatory organizations in North America. Does that mean we shouldn’t engage the US? Does that mean the US can’t be less racist? Does that mean the US isn’t a tool we can try to use to make the world a better place? Unions provide countervailing power to corporate power. Racist people are racist. Sometimes these can overlap.

Unions historically in America have been massive front organizations for mobsters and mafia. Check out the Teamsters - there are many many other examples. Does that make them racist? Of course not. But they have absolutely been discriminatory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Brotherhood_of_T...

And cars are frequently used to smuggle illegal goods.

All sorts of legitimate and useful things get used illegitimately.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#60

Post by curiousllama » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

Tycho wrote: post #27

Title here is misleading (probably deliberate). The email that got this person “fired” was one that allegedly contained an ultimatum and a threat to resign. The employer then called her bluff and accepted her resignation with immediate effect.

Even if it were the case, responding to "retract this paper" with "No; I prefer to resign" is/should be par for the course for a researcher.