Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google • Hacker News Board

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#161

Post by lowercase1 » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 3:59 PM UTC

MaximumYComb wrote: post #94

busrf wrote: post #92

Here's a tweet with more details about her conditions and how that ties in to her resignation: https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334341991795142667 > Apparently my manager’s manager sent an email my direct reports saying she accepted my resignation. I hadn’t resigned—I had asked for simple conditions first and said I would respond when I’m back from vacation. But I guess she decided for me :) that’s the lawyer…

To me, it stinks like a convenient excuse to remove someone who was difficult to work with. Only last week she slandered her bosses on Twitter, which is a public forum.

Slandered, how? https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1331757629996109824?s... seems to be the complaint. This seems plausible given her work to push towards less biased data/algorithms got squashed and she resigned.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#162

Post by lowercase1 » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:02 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #75

bryan_w wrote: post #39

The comments here are weird right now. They seem overly focused on the spat she and Yann LeCun had a while back when it doesn't seem like this incident is about that? Hopefully some clarification comes out about what her demands were and the internet drops their pitchfork about something that happened long ago

It's a pattern of behavior. She had a thread just last week calling her employers "a bunch of privileged White men" and complaining that they were disrespecting her by not letting her work on some unspecified research project. https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1331757629996109824

I mean if you are a bias/ethics researcher and your bosses ignore/limit your work then there are reasons to complain/whistleblow.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#163

Post by nbzso » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

me_me_me wrote: post #145

nbzso wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im most cases downvotes are knee-jerk reaction. I find it normal. People are sensitive creatures with strong biases as default. I read HN actively from 2008 (good old days:) ) nowadays I always look at downvoted comments first to gain information.

I have been long time HN lurker and I too miss the older times, but have hard time finding better alternative.

There is no alternative, and probably will not be another. HN is a result of optimistic hacker culture with big dreams for success and tons of useful info and people. Ideological and practical Impact of HN on my career (18 years +) is enormous, it is on pair with early Google, INFOQ, Nielsen Norman Group. We live in different times now, innovation is hard, most of the valuable users don't have free time to post and I understand this. You can still extract value from HN, but with more friction and effort.:)

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#164

Post by benjohnson » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

MperorM wrote: post #93

compycom wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She didn't call him a racist. She pointed out that there's more to addressing bias than just acknowledging that it's there. If you are going to say "Well, garbage-in, garbage-out!", why do you keep putting the racist garbage in? Why do you, knowing of the problem, keep using biased sources of data, knowing of the potential harms? That's the deeper question ML research/industry has to grapple with. When these models a…

I think this is a great comment, that would do a lot of people a lot of good to read. That said, how should a person like Yann LeCun argue his case? Namely that biased models are the result of bad datasets more so than the result of bad algorithms. I don't think Yann would disagree that biased datasets is a large systemic issue. How should a person like Yann make his point? It doesn't seem to me that Yann and Timnit…

My opinion: Yang made the mistake of thinking a factional conversation was taking place.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#165

Post by thu2111 » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:05 PM UTC

rafram wrote: post #149

thu2111 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that drama was some time ago. She should have been fired on the spot back then, but, at Google women are virtually unfireable, black women doubly so. Whatever she did to get canned like this must have been extreme. Either that or Google is learning how to hold these sorts of employees to the same standards as their less fashionable colleagues. Edit: incorrectly claimed the spat was before 2020, it wasn't. 2020 ju…

> at Google women are virtually unfireable, black women doubly so. Huge, HUGE [citation needed].

What do you expect me to cite to show that? I worked there and saw it for myself. That's the citation. But really, do you doubt it? It's a company that talks constantly about how hard it tries to boost the number of women and blacks working there. Firing them works against that goal.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#166

Post by hnxs » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

Decker87 wrote: post #35

cyrus20 wrote: post #17

Racism exists. Pay discrimination exists. Yet, you can't go about breaking every norm and rule if you are famous and from an under-represented group. I also saw the tweets at Yann LeCun. I'm not his biggest fan, but that wasn't right. She's hurting minorities for her own agenda. Edit: removed info about myself.

I'm sorry, but I call bullshit. With salary bands imposing constraints, it's not even possible for you to have made a third of what someone doing "the same job" made.

Equity and bonuses. How can you not be familiar with how those work, and just how much they amplify TC and distort bands? Don’t know anyone in finance? You shouldn’t even need to since you’re in tech! Our spreads may not be as bad as theirs, but we can still easily see 3x differences when you take things like sign-on bonuses, target bonuses, initial RSU awards, refreshers, and vesting cliffs into account.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#167

Post by fhrow4484 » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

telltruth wrote: post #147

alew1 wrote: post #119

The comments here are disheartening, essentially a combination of “It was Google’s right to fire her” and “She seemed ‘difficult.’” For an industry-operated “Ethics in AI” group to have any teeth, it can’t fire people when they do research that makes them look bad, or when members of the group are ‘difficult.’ (Multiple members of the team she managed have said that she was a great manager and this came as a total su…

In my opinion, she is being very unfair to a lot of her colleagues by not telling the whole truth and at the same time making very serious accusations. She sent email to large group of employees which violated some standards expected from a manager by Google. She is giving all the information except for what exactly she did. It's ironic that she is in "ethics business" but at the same time not realizing that it's une…

> but at the same time not realizing that it's unethical to withhold what she did

Have you considered that she has to remain vague due to the potential litigation coming down the road? In fact didn't she leave some tweets hinting at that ? ("Everything I say will be used against me ..." ?)

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#168

Post by munchbunny » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:16 PM UTC

breatheoften wrote: post #160

Is there a difference when collecting unemployment when fired vs resigning?

Usually resigning doesn't get you severance but being fired without cause does, but I think this is typically a convention, not a law. I'm unsure about the laws around unemployment in these situations.

I doubt the wording used here will matter when it comes to legal brass tacks. Whatever contracts Google and Gebru actually sign will be authoritative there, not the public wording.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#169

Post by jariel » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:16 PM UTC

fxtentacle wrote: post #116

jariel wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really obviously clear to the point wherein it shouldn't be a discussion. Anyone with two years in any industry has to know this. If you make an ultimatum to your employer, and they don't want to accept, assume that it's over, right then and there. Unless you're Michael Jordan, or have some kind of really existential terms with the company.

I'm surprised that she opted to publicly put the blame on someone and link to their Twitter. That could be interpreted as a dog whistle to her followers to start the public shaming. But at the very least, I'd guess that this will make any potential future employer think twice if they really want to be her manager. And lastly, I remember the name Jeff Dean from reading about advanced AI research, so if someone publicl…

"I'm surprised that she opted to publicly put the blame on someone and link to their Twitter."

Because public division creates sides, and taking one of those sides gives you favour with one group.

A pragmatic, mild mannered person who works on such issues behind the scenes is not going to be popular.

But division makes enemies in one camp, allies in the other.

Now we all know someone's name whereas we wouldn't have before.

So one can make a career out championing said allies.

I think a lot of people have this instinct, just expressed in different ways.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#170

Post by GhostofDamore » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

What will those rooting for Google to fire James Damore have to say now? I bet there is a significant overlap of those supporting her now with those rooting for Damore's firing. And Damore didn't make any demand, just a memo.

I see many support her (from a justified? knee jerk reaction?) that being fired from a corporation for questioning it's bottom line is due to the power dynamics. The support to Timnit Gebru (provided her demands are provably good, but only hurts google's bottom line) would be more powerful/rational if the same people will vocally support Damore.

Even if supporting a worker being fired without complete information is a justified position to take based on corporate dynamics, some have started making this into ugly race issue. Some are `supporting` her in the lines of "She was black and hence was fired". If people are judging others as racist just based on tweets now, Jeff Dean seems the opposite of such smear. Even if Dean was a corporate zombie pulling the trigger to save the company bottomline, calling him racist for that without evidence for the latter is insane.

There seems to be a sick trend in progressive politics in US to move away from supporting workers and start making everything into a race issue with no justification.