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Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

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Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#81

Post by kolinko »

Duff wrote: post #74
hasenj wrote: post #3

I don't like how people get defensive around capitalism; "our ideas are not at odds with capitalism", ok, so what if they were? If an idea is at odds with capitalism, that doesn't necessarily make it a bad idea. For instance, I think the idea of free software (RMS style) really is at odds with capitalism; but so what? This is not a good reason to agree or disagree with the idea.

Here's what what said about the gold standard to differentiate from Bitcoin: "There was no choice in how one could pay, payments were made in a vacuum. All transactions had to be made in a currency backed by gold. That meant that any abuse of the Standard could affect the economy negatively and runs on banks were almost inevitable." So what? People were and are always free to transact business in any way that they wo…

Saying that "bitcoin means freedom to choose a form of payment" is naive. Let's say that Bitcoin is success, and 98% of internet merchants accept bitcoins as a mean of payment.

This will mean that once I open up a shop, I have to accept it as well, or I'll lose sales. Of course, in theory, nobody would force me to accept Bitcoins, but so is the case today - nobody forces me to use Dollars, or PayPal.

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#82

Post by olalonde »

v21 wrote: post #68
olalonde wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody wants a free market. That's a market that includes slaves, child pornography, assassination contracts, etc. Those things are perfectly compatible with democracy but completely incompatible with capitalism. An inherent idea to capitalism is the protection of individual freedom which those things clearly violate in some way or another. On the other hand, those things are perfectly compatible with democracy giv…

Is capitalism the same as the free market?

There might be other definitions, but I was referring to free market capitalism.

Edit: Why the hell am I being down voted here?

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#83

Post by lutorm »

corin_ wrote: post #35
contactdick wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like it's already happening - to quote construct "Some quick research shows a handful of big players in the mining market who have invested heavily in high-end GPUs for dedicated bitcoin mining, some with over 50 GPUs running 24/7 for months now. These guys are bound to have huge quantities of bitcoin they are eager to unload when the price is right. Meanwhile, news coverage is driving exploding popularity, wh…

I believe the idea is that mining was a solution for launching BitCoin, and that as BitCoin has become more popular, the value of mining has gone down, meaning that at some point (I don't know if it's already happened or not), mining won't be worth the returns.

This is one thing that does seem to make sense: If mining isn't worth the return, then people will stop, and the returns will go up. It should adjust itself to whatever return people think is necessary to bother.

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#84

Post by weavejester »

pradocchia wrote: post #77

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I'll mention it here: The production curve for bitcoin, that starts steep and eventually levels off when total supply reaches 21M, is not at all like gold: http://www.goldsheetlinks.com/production2.htm At times gold production has exceeded population growth, at times it has lagged behind, but it certainly has not leveled off. Also recall that Friedman called for a fixed 3% growth…

How exactly bitcoin resemble a Ponzi scheme? It kinda sounds like you mean pyramid scheme, rather than Ponzi scheme. (Not that bitcoin is a pyramid scheme either...)

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#85

Post by olavk »

Amincd wrote: post #61
olalonde wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that we don't live in a purely capitalist system and in fact, I don't like to call it that way as it undermines its meaning. In a truly capitalist system we wouldn't have this discussion at all since there'd be no federal reserve and currencies would be free to compete against each others. In my opinion, Bitcoin (and the gold standard in some ways) is as close to capitalism as it gets.

" As someone else pointed out, in a pure capitalism, we'd have slaves, child porn, thugs for hire, assassination contracts, etc." No you wouldn't. All of those things are the exact opposite of capitalism, since they prevent voluntary association and threaten body, liberty and property.

So in a capitalist society there will be no pollution?

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#86

Post by barrkel »

olalonde wrote: post #78
barrkel wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not treating people as property is a distortion of the free market. If people aren't property, what incentive do companies have to invest in their education? Rich people would be much more likely to pay for the education of their slaves if they were assured of strong property rights over them. How can you properly price human capital if there isn't a free market in it? Etc., etc. Free markets are amoral machines that…

I've yet to hear of someone who felt as a criminal after quitting his job (or after stealing himself from his employer as you put it).

Gah! You've completely missed the point of my irony. There's scarcely any point discoursing with you.

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#87

Post by pradocchia »

weavejester wrote: post #84
pradocchia wrote: post #77

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I'll mention it here: The production curve for bitcoin, that starts steep and eventually levels off when total supply reaches 21M, is not at all like gold: http://www.goldsheetlinks.com/production2.htm At times gold production has exceeded population growth, at times it has lagged behind, but it certainly has not leveled off. Also recall that Friedman called for a fixed 3% growth…

How exactly bitcoin resemble a Ponzi scheme? It kinda sounds like you mean pyramid scheme, rather than Ponzi scheme. (Not that bitcoin is a pyramid scheme either...)

In that Bitcoin presents itself as a viable alternative currency, and encourages adoption by people looking for a safe haven from fiat currency. Eventually, though, it could become clear that certain factors, possibly the production function, preclude it from long term viability. The value drops, holding are wiped out, but not before the earliest adopters have already secured their gains.

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#88

Post by olalonde »

barrkel wrote: post #86
olalonde wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've yet to hear of someone who felt as a criminal after quitting his job (or after stealing himself from his employer as you put it).

Gah! You've completely missed the point of my irony. There's scarcely any point discoursing with you.

Well, you're not talking about capitalism. Your whole reasoning is based on a false premise, because there are limits to the kind of transactions allowed in a free market. In a free market, you are free to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't interfere with someone else's freedom. Your freedom ends where someone else's begins.

Hence, slavery not being compatible with capitalism is a fact, not a distortion of the free market nor a mere opinion.

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#89

Post by Duff »

kolinko wrote: post #81
Duff wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what what said about the gold standard to differentiate from Bitcoin: "There was no choice in how one could pay, payments were made in a vacuum. All transactions had to be made in a currency backed by gold. That meant that any abuse of the Standard could affect the economy negatively and runs on banks were almost inevitable." So what? People were and are always free to transact business in any way that they wo…

Saying that "bitcoin means freedom to choose a form of payment" is naive. Let's say that Bitcoin is success, and 98% of internet merchants accept bitcoins as a mean of payment. This will mean that once I open up a shop, I have to accept it as well, or I'll lose sales. Of course, in theory, nobody would force me to accept Bitcoins, but so is the case today - nobody forces me to use Dollars, or PayPal.

But again, barring some magical event that entices 98% of merchants to accept Bitcoin, why would you accept it versus gold, silver etc?

You still need a middleman to broker the transaction to whatever the legal tender currency is, so why not just exchange shares of GLD or SLV online?

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#90

Post by Symmetry »

barrkel wrote: post #39
jsn wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free software isn't at odds with capitalism (you don't have to extract monetary profit from everything you do in capitalism). Neither is bitcoin. Government-controlled paper money, on the other hand, definitely is at odds with free market.

Nobody wants a free market. That's a market that includes slaves, child pornography, assassination contracts, etc. At the level of globally integrated economies, I think the gold standard has been pretty well proven to be disastrous. It especially doesn't deal well with trade imbalances that unwind suddenly. The trouble you see in the Euro area can be seen as a microcosm of what a gold standard is like; countries lik…

I think most people's definition of "free market" is that people can sell or not sell their property or services for whatever price they wish - not that any good or service is legal to own or produce. People sometimes, but not always, lump the right not to have your property or labour taken from you under the term "free market" and sometimes just lump not having it taken from you except for monetary taxes (as opposed to taxes in kind or forced labour). Some people also lump freedom of contract under the rubric of "free market".

The generally accepted term for everything, including murder and conspiracy to murder, being legal is "anarchy" and if people still have free markets in this anarchy thats generally referred to as "anarcho-capitalism". Though nothing about having a free market says that murder is legal and probably says that forcing another person to work for you using the threat of violence is illegal. I can certainly see arguing that a free market implies legal prostitution, however, since unmarried sex is legal in most places.

EDIT: And as to Capitalism, well to quote Wikipedia: "There is no consensus on the precise definition of capitalism, nor how the term should be used as an historical category."

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