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Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

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Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#71
post #9

All economies are built on some combination of trust, fakery, coercion and hard work. The underlying rationale of a currency backed by "real material" is that it can be trusted to last. It can be trusted more than any government. Governments can fall quickly. Bitcoin hasn't proven itself to the degree of gold. It doesn't necessarily have to, though. It just has to look _better_ than alternatives, within some useful t…

It is difficult for me to fathom an environment where bitcoin is more attractive than gold or silver. At least outside of the alternate universe of PR that bitcoin proponents seem to live in.

Bitcoin claims to share the attributes of metals that make it different (ie. immutability, scarcity), but does so in a way that is impenetrable to the average person with the added flair of having do go through anonymous and shady middlemen to exchange bitcoin for an alternate currency in a highly volatile market.

So other than making the early bitcoin users who likely hold most bitcoin rich, what is the advantage of using it over other physical commodities whose use has been established for millennia?

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#72
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants a free market. That's a market that includes slaves, child pornography, assassination contracts, etc. At the level of globally integrated economies, I think the gold standard has been pretty well proven to be disastrous. It especially doesn't deal well with trade imbalances that unwind suddenly. The trouble you see in the Euro area can be seen as a microcosm of what a gold standard is like; countries lik…

> Nobody wants a free market. That's a market that includes slaves, child pornography, assassination contracts, etc. Those things are perfectly compatible with democracy but completely incompatible with capitalism. An inherent idea to capitalism is the protection of individual freedom which those things clearly violate in some way or another. On the other hand, those things are perfectly compatible with democracy giv…

Not treating people as property is a distortion of the free market. If people aren't property, what incentive do companies have to invest in their education? Rich people would be much more likely to pay for the education of their slaves if they were assured of strong property rights over them. How can you properly price human capital if there isn't a free market in it?

Etc., etc. Free markets are amoral machines that discover price levels appropriate to supply and demand through transactions. They are not intrinsically good or bad; it is in the transactions that make them up that moral judgement comes in. But if the market is truly free, then there will be no limit on the kinds of transactions.

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#73
post #60
post #3

I don't like how people get defensive around capitalism; "our ideas are not at odds with capitalism", ok, so what if they were? If an idea is at odds with capitalism, that doesn't necessarily make it a bad idea. For instance, I think the idea of free software (RMS style) really is at odds with capitalism; but so what? This is not a good reason to agree or disagree with the idea.

Capitalism means non-government intervention in your voluntary agreements and interactions with others. In other words, it's freedom.

There's a lot of disagreement over that word "voluntary", though. People who emphasize the "capitalism" part, as in anarcho-capitalists, tend to take a very loose view of what constitutes voluntary agreement, which is basically anything short of initiating actual physical violence, or perhaps direct threats like putting a gun to someone's head. Others, from the more left-leaning parts of voluntaryist circles, require a stronger definition of voluntary.

The standards of traditional western contract law for what counts as a voluntary agreement (i.e. not one entered into under coercion or duress) are somewhere in between.

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#74
post #3

I don't like how people get defensive around capitalism; "our ideas are not at odds with capitalism", ok, so what if they were? If an idea is at odds with capitalism, that doesn't necessarily make it a bad idea. For instance, I think the idea of free software (RMS style) really is at odds with capitalism; but so what? This is not a good reason to agree or disagree with the idea.

Here's what what said about the gold standard to differentiate from Bitcoin: "There was no choice in how one could pay, payments were made in a vacuum. All transactions had to be made in a currency backed by gold. That meant that any abuse of the Standard could affect the economy negatively and runs on banks were almost inevitable."

So what? People were and are always free to transact business in any way that they would like, but the coin of the realm that you are required to accept and pay taxes with is/was gold. That doesn't mean that I can't exchange a few bushels of wheat for a goat. Or some coupons for car washes for a sandwich. Or some bitcoin for a webhosting, or whatever you buy with bitcoin.

Bitcoin is only against capitalism in the sense that nobody is going to make a significant amount of money from it.

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody wants a free market. That's a market that includes slaves, child pornography, assassination contracts, etc. Those things are perfectly compatible with democracy but completely incompatible with capitalism. An inherent idea to capitalism is the protection of individual freedom which those things clearly violate in some way or another. On the other hand, those things are perfectly compatible with democracy giv…

Our current quasi-free markets already do have "assassination" contracts - your supermarket pays a slaughterhouse to assassinate cows. We also have slavery - horses are forced to labor for whatever amount of money their owners give them. I'm not making a "meat is murder" argument. I'm just pointing out that pretty much any conceivable capitalist system defines cows and horses to be property, not people. One can envis…

True, but that's a problem of semantics which is not specific to the definition of capitalism. Whatever system you advocate, you'll have to define the terms you employ: "person", "market participant", "proletariat", "equality", etc.

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#76
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well the motivation to make money is a fairly strong one for a lot of people - many worse things are done every day because of it.

Yes, but destroying BitCoin would not make you any money. At least I don't see how.

Destroying BitCoin provides you lots of value if you have a vested interest in some thing that BitCoin threatens the value of.

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#77
I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I'll mention it here:

The production curve for bitcoin, that starts steep and eventually levels off when total supply reaches 21M, is not at all like gold:

http://www.goldsheetlinks.com/production2.htm

At times gold production has exceeded population growth, at times it has lagged behind, but it certainly has not leveled off.

Also recall that Friedman called for a fixed 3% growth in the money supply, year on year, commensurate w/ long term rates of economic growth. So why would Bitcoin use a curve that starts steep and levels off?

I have heard two claims from Gavin: 1) it represents the pattern of natural resource extraction (easy it first, progressively harder until the marginal cost exceeds the margin gain), and 2) it encourages early adopters.

Now, I might wish it weren't so, but we're really good at natural resource extraction, and we get better over time, until demand falls. Plus, the general thinking goes, money supply should ideally grow at a constant rate, in line w/ long term economic averages. Maybe the extended long term view would restate that as a constant rate, relative to population growth. I don't know. The system has to reach equilibrium eventually, but we're not there yet, and for now the closest approximation is a constant percent, year-on-year.

So I'm afraid that reason (1), and Bitcoin resembling something fundamental in nature and the economy, is just not true. At best, Bitcoin is an entirely new kind of monetary system, with properties that don't resemble the gold standard or fiat currency, but will be beneficial in some fashion down the road. And at worst, it's just a Ponzi scheme.

I haven't seen (1) addressed substantively, so for now I'm tending towards bitcoin-as-ponzi-scheme.

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#78
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody wants a free market. That's a market that includes slaves, child pornography, assassination contracts, etc. Those things are perfectly compatible with democracy but completely incompatible with capitalism. An inherent idea to capitalism is the protection of individual freedom which those things clearly violate in some way or another. On the other hand, those things are perfectly compatible with democracy giv…

Not treating people as property is a distortion of the free market. If people aren't property, what incentive do companies have to invest in their education? Rich people would be much more likely to pay for the education of their slaves if they were assured of strong property rights over them. How can you properly price human capital if there isn't a free market in it? Etc., etc. Free markets are amoral machines that…

I've yet to hear of someone who felt as a criminal after quitting his job (or after stealing himself from his employer as you put it).

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#79
post #18

Technically, BitCoin is hardly scalable. As every participant needs to be aware of every transaction, that gives O(N^2) computational/storage cost, assuming N is participants and transactions~participants. May be cured by a dedicated central server storing all the transactions, but then it is not P2P anymore.

> Technically, BitCoin is hardly scalable. As every participant needs to be aware of every transaction, that gives O(N^2) computational/storage cost, assuming N is participants and transactions~participants. That's not true. The Bitcoin protocol defines a "simplified payment verification" method that does not require clients to store the full block chain. The Bitcoin network does need a sufficient number of full clie…

So, the claim of being P2P goes to the wind first :)

Second. When accepting a coin, a node needs to check the coin was not spent since the last time it changed hands. If the buyer claims he got it 1 month ago (and shows a proof), then the seller needs to check a month worth of transactions, just in case it was double-spent. Note the terrible asymmetry of the attacker's and the defender's costs.

Third. Today I had to reread the paper (by Nakamoto) and I am surprised (again) by the level of wishfulness and naïveté. Sec 5 (page 3) says: "the nodes that were working on the other branch will then switch to the longer one". Does he realize that in a distributed system nodes might have totally different opinions on the number and length of those branches? And that those opinions might change. It is easy to imagine nodes hopping between branches with no global agreement possible. His very way of thinking has zero intuition about distributed/asynchronous systems, sorry.

Obviously, that may be cured by introducing well-provisioned central sites, as you say. But then, all that crypto-trickery becomes entirely meaningless and the system loses its raison d'être. Well-provisioned mutually-recognized sites/banks may do it exactly the way they do it these days.

Sorry for the rant.

Re: Bitcoin money ≠ the Gold Standard.

#80
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but destroying BitCoin would not make you any money. At least I don't see how.

Destroying BitCoin provides you lots of value if you have a vested interest in some thing that BitCoin threatens the value of.

Fair point.
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